What's the Deal with Interest Rates and Appraisals?

Christian: [0:00] Hello, hello, and welcome to another episode of The Awesome in Seattle podcast. This is Christian Nossum of the Awesome Nossum Group at Wilson Realty Exchange, Inc, and today we're gonna be talking about appraisals and interest rates and kinda what's going on on the financing side of the real estate spectrum.

Jason: [0:16] Uh-

Christian: [0:16] Juicy. Yes. Juicy.

Reed: [0:18] Mm-hmm.

Christian: [0:19] As always, we wanna arm you buyers with up-to-date information that's gonna help you navigate the home buying process, and there's definitely a lot going on in the financing world. So first we're gonna go over interest rates, and h- hopefully help put the current interest rates and the rising interest rates into proper perspective. Then we're gonna talk about appraisals and how details around this part of the home buying process have recently shifted due to a lack of available appraisers and a move to a more virtual online platform. So it's gonna be interesting. Uh, but before we get into that, let's introduce the co-hosts today. We are missing a couple of our members, but that's okay. I know that Jason and Reed are up to task. So first up, we got Jason Saldarriaga, the data guru.

Jason: [1:07] Hello, hello, hello.

Christian: [1:09] And we have the Seattle native, Ms. Reed Watson.

Reed: [1:11] Hello, hello, hello, hello.

Christian: [1:13] Oh. Oh, gotta beat him out. Thank you. Thank you both for joining me today. Um, before we get started into all this stuff, I wanna start with a little trivia. So I want to help people put interest rates into perspective, so I'm gonna ask you guys two different questions, two different trivia questions. The first one, during the last 20 years, what year had the highest annual average interest rate, and what was it? And I can give you a hint, because the answer to this one may surprise you, because it actually surprised me a slight bit.

Jason: [1:49] The last 20 years?

Christian: [1:50] Mm-hmm.

Jason: [1:51] Oof. I was gonna say the '80s, but that's, uh-

Christian: [1:55] Yeah, nope. That would be too easy, 'cause we talked about that. Yeah. Within the last 20 years, so it's basically 2022, so since 2002.

Jason: [2:03] Uh, um, I would say like right about for the Great Recession probably, just because that was a-

Christian: [2:09] So like 2007- Big one … 8, something like that?

Jason: [2:12] Yeah.

Christian: [2:13] And what would you say the rate was? What's your guess?

Jason: [2:16] Uh- It ha- I'm assuming it's around where it is today because we, I feel like I've seen things saying that we're back to, like, highs that we haven't seen in more than 20 years. So-

Christian: [2:31] Okay … I

Jason: [2:31] think we just surpassed it, but maybe I'm wrong.

Christian: [2:33] So

Jason: [2:34] you're saying- So, uh, so let's say, like, 5% or something.

Christian: [2:36] Okay.

Jason: [2:37] Like, I feel like we just surpassed it. I could have sworn I just read that.

Christian: [2:40] Reed, what's your answer?

Reed: [2:43] I'm gonna guess that it was around 7% or 8%.

Christian: [2:46] Hmm.

Reed: [2:47] And you- And since you said it surprised you, I'm just gonna say 2012.

Christian: [2:52] Ooh.

Reed: [2:53] Interesting. I'm just gonna pick a really random one.

Christian: [2:56] All right. So the answer, according to Freddie Mac, 2002-

Reed: [3:02] Huh … Speaker: had an annual average of 6.54%. Wow.

Christian: [3:06] And, and it actually went over 7% a few times that year.

Jason: [3:10] Interesting.

Christian: [3:11] Mm-hmm. Okay. Yeah. All right. Number two, also during the last 20 years, what year had the lowest annual average interest rate, and what was it? This one's a little easier, but I'm curious if you guys can figure it out.

Reed: [3:25] Oh, over the last 20 years. It's a trick question. Uh, 2021.

Christian: [3:33] Okay. And what do you think it was?

Reed: [3:35] 3%.

Christian: [3:36] Okay. Jason?

Reed: [3:37] Right, guess

Jason: [3:38] 2020? Um, I think 2020, I think. It was lower, huh? And, uh, slightly. Is it? Uh, if I recall, if I recall my life then. Um. Well it was- They were close together

Christian: [3:50] anyway,

Reed: [3:50] so. We all, we all blocked it out.

Christian: [3:51] Yeah.

Jason: [3:52] It was around two.

Reed: [3:54] What?

Christian: [3:55] All right. So according to Freddie Mac, in 2021-

Jason: [3:59] Mm … Speaker: that was the lowest annual mortgage interest rate, and that was at 2.96%. And again, that's average for the whole year.

Reed: [4:07] Okay.

Christian: [4:09] Um, and it actually had its lowest point in January of 2021 at 2.74%. And we're talking 30-year fixed.

Jason: [4:16] Oh,

Christian: [4:16] okay. Not, not 15, so. So yeah. So if you are a buyer who's paying attention to mortgage interest rates for the first time, it may worry you to hear the interest rates are rising. Um, but putting these rates into historical context might help you get a clear picture on understanding current interest rates. And I'll, I mean, I'll, I'll give my kind of two cents after I've been in this for now 17 years. This, I don't think in my life I'm ever gonna see interest rates in the threes again. I just think it's not possible, and I don't think it's gonna happen. So, um, try and get that out of your brain that that's normal, 'cause it's definitely not. That was the first time we'd ever reached that low was, you know, 2021, 2020, 2022 during the pandemic. That was really the only time we've ever gotten that low. So, um, moving forward, I think, you know, maybe we'll see them in the fours again, but I think that's probably slightly unlikely. Maybe the higher fours. I think fives and above is probably gonna be the norm, uh, for us moving forward. So, but let's, uh, let's kind of go over that a little bit more.

Reed: [5:23] Absolutely. So I thought we could dive into some more historical context. At the beginning of this year, the average 30-year fixed rate mortgage had an interest rate of 3.15. So beginning of 2022, in January, we were at 3.15%. Now, in April, we are at about 5%. So yes, interest rates are rising, but when we compare the current interest rates to rates from preceding decades, we can see that comparatively rates are still historically low. This is something we talk about during our Beers and Home Buying class, and Jason uses a graphic to illustrate the history of interest rates. And I encourage listeners who are worried about rising rates to attend the Beers and Home Buying class, and hopefully gain a helpful perspective on this and a lot of other aspects of home buying.

Christian: [6:15] Yeah. That's a good lead to advertise at our next class. We have one every single month, uh, other than December, and you can always find where our next class is gonna be held, uh, at the website beersandhomebuying.com (opens in a new tab). That's beers, with an S, and homebuying.com. Um, we have them, again, every single month. We hold them at different venues all around the Puget Sound area. Um, so yeah, just check out beersandhomebuying.com (opens in a new tab). They are totally free, 100% free. There is free beer, often free food, not always, but most venues have food. And they're only an hour-long class. There's zero pressure, literally just us teaching you the basics of home buying, uh, so that you can make an informed decision.

Reed: [7:03] Thank you, Christian. So let's look back over the last five decades for a clearer picture of current interest rates. So back in the '70s and early '80s, interest rates were in the 18% to 20% range.

Jason: [7:16] Oh.

Reed: [7:17] W- yeah, way higher than they are now In the '90s, we saw an average of between 7 and 9%. And then from 2000 to 2010, they hovered between 5 and 7%. As we've discussed, in 2020 and 2021, we saw rates around 3%, which were record lows. I don't think we'll ever see these 3% rates again, as Christian was saying. But now that we've looked back, I think it's time to look forward. And before the beginning of 2022, experts were predicting rates would reach around 4.5 by the end of the year. As we've discussed, we have already surpassed that this April of 2022, being at 4.85%. This is most likely linked to some unforeseen factors, such as the war in Ukraine and surging oil prices. And so the bottom line is that rates are rising, but in the grand scheme of things, current rates are still very low.

Jason: [8:22] How low can you go?

Reed: [8:24] How low can you go?

Jason: [8:26] Yeah. During, uh, 2020 and 2021, the Fed drove mortgage rates down in response to the pandemic. Um, we've spoken at length about that, the impacts the pandemic had on, um, real estate. And that led to what, uh, the record low rates that we saw around that time. And now as we move into a recovery phase, as expected, rates are gonna go up. The steps that the Fed has taken to combat our recent surge in inflation has been the primary driver behind the recent surge in higher interest rates that we've seen. Um, and they've made it pretty clear that they plan to continue to raise interest rates and do other things in addition to that to address inflation. This will- Um, almost definitely increase borrowing costs. Uh, the end result, the number, um, any crystal ball can tell you. Who knows? But we shall see where it lands. It's gonna be interesting to see how, how high it goes this year. For a home buyer, though, the bottom line is, I'm sure you're thinking this, how do higher rates affect purchase power or price? So, uh, in a very simplified way, for every 1% interest rate increase, home shoppers, uh, you can afford about 10% less of a home. And if you run the numbers, this is a pr- this is pretty close to exact. So, um, let's grab a f- $850,000 home, you put 10% down on it. At 5% interest, you would be seeing monthly payments of around $4,700. But if rates were at 4%, so 1% below that, um, your monthly payment would be at 42, 4,300, which is almost exactly 10% lower. And if you go up a percentage from five or down a percentage from four, uh, the 10% holds true there, too. So that's a really good way in your head to calculate it. Um, that's dramatic. 1% increase in interest rates impact purchasing power, um, by 10% at the end of the day.

Christian: [10:35] Yeah, and we've talked about this numerous times in our classes, in this podcast, how, you know, people are always worried about home prices. But interest rates can really affect your payment way more than the actual purchase price can.

Jason: [10:49] Yep. And, uh, and then just over time you look at… I, I don't have this written out right now in front of me, but, um, the amount that you pay towards interest versus principal with a mortgage when the rate increases, a, a slight increase, uh, can, it, it, it's painful to see how much more goes towards interest- Mm-hmm over that 30-year period.

Christian: [11:13] Yep.

Jason: [11:13] Um, and then just to set an expectation with everyone where we are roughly today, um, I think we just hit about 5% interest. Um, so this is April 2022. Um, hopefully when everyone's listening to this, they're still around 5%. We shall see. Mm-hmm.

Reed: [11:34] Yeah, absolutely. And it's, as we've discussed many times on this podcast, the market has been consistently competitive over the last five years, both nationally and here in the Seattle area. That's driven by many factors, with the primary one just being exceptionally low inventory, so very few homes on the market for sale.

Jason: [11:56] It's actually pretty interesting, Reed. Uh, you know, we've been talking about the expectation that interest rates are gonna be rising, and seen increased interest rates- Mm-hmm um, the past few months. And generally speaking, the, the consensus is higher interest rates affect the real estate market. It slows the, the market down. It, it leads to lower prices over time.

Reed: [12:23] Right.

Jason: [12:23] Um, if you look at estimates, even today, like we, we talked about this at the beginning, beginning of the year, but even today a lot of these large firms that calculate and, and forecast, um, prices and all that jazz, they're still pretty much hedging that home prices will increase this year. Um, they haven't moved too much from what they were thinking at the beginning of the year. The reason being what you're saying. The, the… While interest rates will be rising, the lack of inventory overcomes that negative, uh- Mm-hmm … part, and it's still leading to, uh, at, uh, at the end of the day, higher, higher prices, because there's just so little inventory. Um-

Christian: [13:04] 100% agree with that, yeah.

Jason: [13:05] As a buyer, this is something we've been saying forever, and I think it holds true more today than ever before, it's probably best, generally speaking, not to wait. Mm-hmm. Uh, similar to most investments, uh, the most sure way for a return is length of time holding it. So c- getting into the market sooner rather than later, almost always it statistically is a better way of, of making things work out in your favor in the long term. One factor, by the way, to consider about the current rules- Around appraisals is the reaction to the Great Recession. So after the housing crisis, 2007, 2008, 2009, there was just a lot of over-regulation. Um, Dodd-Frank was enacted.

Reed: [13:56] Mm-hmm.

Jason: [13:56] Much of th- this regulation centered around how appraisals were done, because appraisals were f- pointed at, at being a root problem, uh, that led to the, the recession. Not the sole problem, but a, a large part of the problem.

Christian: [14:12] Yep.

Jason: [14:13] Now, over the last few years, some of these regulations have been relaxed, and efforts have definitely been made to make the process easier and more effective, and to find a good middle ground. You want some regulation. You don't wanna go back to, uh, House of Cards, not the show, but the- mortgage house of cards of 2005, 2006 era. Yep. But you also don't want necessarily to be really difficult.

Christian: [14:39] Yeah, so although interest rates have risen, we've only slightly seen an impact so far on the market. Uh, everyone was predicting that we would see some crazy impact, and, uh, we have not, not seen that, for sure. Um, there are some segments of the market that have received more interest. Um, and I know, Reed, you've been busy in that market right now.

Reed: [15:05] Yeah, I've definitely seen this recent rise in interest rates make the condo market a little bit more competitive. Mm-hmm. Typically, it's a little bit less competitive, but I think right now is a lot of buyers who, you know, are trying to get their foot in the door by buying a condo. As those interest rates go up, their purchasing power goes down, and they're now in a rush to, uh, secure a property just as soon as they can.

Christian: [15:32] Yeah. And we just had a condo listing that had multiple, multiple offers on it. Um, and we ended up taking one that was extremely strong, very competitive. So I can definitely say, and, and say with, you know, our anecdotal evidence, but, you know, what we're seeing live on the front lines is that it is, the condo market is definitely seeing that competition keyed up. Uh, I would say for single family homes or townhomes, they are still competitive, but this is totally anecdotal and we don't have any evidence for this yet. But w- like, for example, I made an offer for a townhouse in Fremont yesterday. That same or a very similar one, even just a month and a half, no not even a month ago, uh, had 13 offers on it, and it sold for $300,000 over the asking price.

Jason: [16:25] Mm-hmm.

Christian: [16:25] This one yesterday that was similar had seven offers, so slightly less, not a lot less, but slightly less. And while it still sold for $200,000 over, it was not like… It, it's slightly cooling down, I guess I could say. Yeah. Yeah. Still crazy. That's what it looks like- Still competitive … when things

Reed: [16:43] cool down.

Christian: [16:43] Yeah. Exactly. That's when we say it's cooled down, that's what we're talking about. So this is not, though, common across the board. This is not everywhere. This is not even all over the Seattle area. Um, these are specific areas that we're referring to. And every market is very different, and this is why we talk so much about- the importance of a sold search in our buyers and home buying class and having a strategy session with us. So when you have a free strategy session with us, it's just a one-on-one call with us and with you, and we go over your specific market, your criteria, and we try to show you, or we do show you what is happening in your specific market. So your price range, your style of home, your beds, baths, square footage, all your criteria, and we get you 100% calibrated to your market, which allows you to make that informed decision of whether or not buying makes sense for you right now. And this is totally free. There's no obligation. You don't have to do anything. It's just literally our attempt to help educate you on the process. And again, this is why it's so important to take this step so that you can understand what we're seeing on the front lines that the stats have not produced yet, so that you can get a feel for what's happening and how competitive it's gonna be. And although, yeah, we're saying it's slightly less competitive, some, some markets are still extremely competitive. It's funny to say that, you know, it's less competitive where they're only paying $200,000 over the asking price instead of 300 and instead of 13 offers, there are only seven. So that's, that's why it's so important to do those strategy sessions. And if you are interested in s- in signing up for one, there's totally free. You can do it right on our calendar on our website, AwesomeNossumGroup.com/schedule. There is no pressure. Again, they're totally free, and, uh, it can really help you out. So might as well take us up on this offer. Now, getting back to what we were actually talking about, and that is the effect of refinancing and interest rates. So if rates go down after you buy, you could potentially always refinance to get a new loan at a lower rate. Homeowners did this all the time. In fact, during these record low rates that we saw the last few years, so many people were refinancing that the government actually instituted additional fees for refinances, and they tried to do this to slow that market down, which I don't think had a great effect. We did notice slightly, but I don't think it really had much of any effect on it. Because rates have been so low over the past few years, this, the reaction to this rate in, or this rise in interest rates can kind of seem a little bit funny in retrospect. People are like, "What? They're so high. They're in the fives." And we're like, "Yeah. In the '80s they were almost 20%, so really is it that high?" And that's, that's kinda what we try to do with this podcast today, is help you understand that, you know, interest rates, while they are higher and while they are in the fives now versus in the threes, in the big scheme of things they are still extremely low. Money is still extremely cheap, inexpensive to borrow, um, and that, that should not necessarily stop you from buying So that's, that's kind of our goal for, for this section. But let's move on to another recent change in home buying and talk about the appraisal process. So an appraisal, again, just to re- remind you, a, an appraisal is where the lender, the bank, whoever is loaning you the money, requires an appraiser to come out to the property and they're trying to verify that the home that you are buying is worth what you're paying so that they can protect the asset, the loan, the money that they're giving you. By doing this, they're protecting their investment, and it protects you as the buyer from overpaying. The appraisal is done by a neutral third party, a licensed appraiser, and this is an unbiased third-party assessment. This is paid for by the buyer, so sometimes you have to pay a little bit extra in order to speed up the appraisal timeline. An appraisal of the home's value is based on factors such as recent sales of similar properties nearby, current market trends, and the home's amenities, like how big it is, the square footage, how recently it was updated. Like comparing a house that was just completely remodeled versus a house that was built in the '40s and hasn't been touched. Obviously, the more remodeled, recently remodeled one's gonna be worth than, more than the other. Up until just recently, appraisals had to be done in person the majority of the time. They would actually walk through the home and verify that everything's there. They would measure the home and just make sure that there weren't any giant red flags wrong with the house, like it's falling over, it's missing, you know, a roof or a wall or something glaring. They weren't doing, like, a full property inspection like an in- inspector would do, but they were just verifying some things.

Jason: [21:47] One factor, by the way, to consider about the current rules around appraisals is the reaction to the Great Recession. So after the housing crisis, 2007, 2008, 2009, there was just a lot of over-regulation. Um, Dodd-Frank was enacted.

Christian: [22:06] Mm-hmm.

Jason: [22:06] Much of th- this regulation centered around how appraisals were done because appraisals were f- pointed at, at being a root problem, uh, that led to the, the recession. Not the sole problem, but a, a large part of the problem.

Christian: [22:22] Yep.

Jason: [22:22] Now, over the last few years, some of these regulations have been relaxed, and efforts have definitely been made to make the process easier and more effective and to find a good middle ground. You want some regulation. You don't wanna go back to a house of cards, not the show, but the- mortgage house of cards of 2005, 2006 era. Yep. But you also don't want necessarily, like, the really difficult lending world of 2013.

Christian: [22:52] Yeah, you don't want the, the rules to stymie the actual market.

Jason: [22:55] Exactly. So then during the pandemic, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, they're Georgians, they live in a cabin in the woods. They implemented temporary flexibilities around appraisals, which allowed for remote or desktop appraisals. So instead of an appraiser going out and basically inspecting the property in person, they could do it at a computer, or it could be automated, or more of them could be automated. Basically, it's run through an algorithm, and it spews a number out. So as a result of this, they were able to see how relaxing the rules around appraisals worked, and the impact that it would have into finding that good middle ground to make an effective approach with appraisals. So the common mindset going forward is that making appraisals easier could- couldn't have come at a better time. Because in addition to the over-regulation, we're seeing a, a huge shortage of appraisers. I feel like so much of real estate, we talk about contractors and builders, and now supplies, t- uh, bathtubs, uh, you know, uh- Appliances … appliances, everything. There's no supply. And oh, let's add appraisers to the mix. Yeah. There is a good amount of agents out there.

Christian: [24:16] Yeah.

Jason: [24:16] A lot of agents.

Christian: [24:17] A lot of agents, not a lot of appraisers.

Jason: [24:18] Yeah. But it, it is actually kind of painful on the appraisal side. Uh, you try to get an appraisal done, and sometimes you can order it, you can hope for it to be done quickly, but if there's no appraiser available, it might sit there a few more days than you expect. Even if you throw money at the problem and say, "Please, I'll pay a lot of money for this appraisal. Just quicken it." Um, so these moves towards remote and desktop appraisals, uh, would help in that regard, and that's another side that I think a lot of people miss.

Christian: [24:49] Yep, I totally agree. Yeah, it's, it's actually kind of crazy how hard it is to become an appraiser. Uh, they do not make it easy to become one. Uh, unlike being a real estate agent, which is a little too easy.

Jason: [25:03] Yeah, and a lot of the ones I've met, they've been… I- it's like one of those industries, they're generally, like, veterans of the industry.

Christian: [25:10] Mm-hmm.

Jason: [25:11] And y- you gain so much knowledge from them. It's like, "Oh yeah, I was here in the '80s. It was, it was 17% interest rates," and-

Christian: [25:19] Exactly.

Reed: [25:19] So as Christian and Jason just mentioned, it used to be required for an appraiser to actually go out to the property and walk around the home to physically look at it. Now there's something called a desktop appraisal, which is an option, but not every property qualifies for a desktop appraisal. Again, a desktop appraisal is… You know, I don't… Do we need to really reiterate that? I don't know. Let's

Christian: [25:44] see. Did he… I'm trying

Reed: [25:46] to remember what he- He did say- Okay … he said, uh, where did he say it though?

Christian: [25:51] Yeah. It

Reed: [25:52] was- Well, under remote or desktop appraisals, and then he said, it's not written here, but that basically they don't, they could just do it from the, their-

Christian: [26:00] Okay

Reed: [26:00] desk. So in order to To be approv-- okay. In order to be approved for a desktop appraisal, a property has to meet certain qualifications. So it has to be one unit, and it might be able to include an accessory dwelling unit, but it can't be a multiple unit property, so duplexes, triplexes, those do not qualify. It also has to be your principal residence, meaning that it can't be an investment property or a vacation home. It has to be the home that you're going to live in the majority of the time. It also can't be a refi. It needs to be, you know, an actual home purchase. Mm-hmm. But it can include new construction homes. Another factor is the loan-to-value ratio. You need to have at least a ten percent down payment in order to qualify for that desktop appraisal, and again, that's about the bank, you know, protecting its investment. If they see that you have ten percent down, they're a little bit more likely to just give you a desktop appraisal because you have a substantial down payment. The final requirement is around risk assessment. Fannie Mae has something called the Desktop Underwriter System, where lenders can more easily complete credit risk assessments. So to qualify for a remote or desktop appraisal, your loan must receive an eligible or approved evaluation from that system. And if your case is marked as ineligible, then you will have to have an in-person appraisal and have an appraiser come out to the property.

Christian: [27:35] Yeah, and some of the properties that will still need an in-person appraisal include condos, manufactured homes, second homes, or otherwise known in va- as vacation homes, uh, investment properties, if you're doing a refinance. These are the types of homes that for sure are going to need, um, those in-person appraisals.

Jason: [27:54] Mm-hmm.

Christian: [27:55] If you are buying a single family home that will be your pri- primary residence, you may qualify, like Reed said, um, but sometimes it might not be in the buyer's best interest to seek a desktop appraisal. So I'm gonna give you a kinda flip in the script, uh, way to look at this.

Jason: [28:12] Mm-hmm.

Christian: [28:12] If you're buying a home, and you have an appraisal contingency in your offer, and you're trying to negotiate, and the appraisal comes in low, that might benefit you, because you might be able to renegotiate with the seller on price. So if the home is actually in bad shape compared to the comparable homes in, in the area, you might actually want the appraiser to see how bad the condition of the home is so that they will give you a low appraisal so that you can then renegotiate with the seller. Told you I was flipping the script on this one. Um, on the other side, if you have recently remodeled your home, or you're buying a home that was recently remodeled, it actually might make more sense for you to have an appraiser come out and verify all of the value added benefits that are in the home now. So if you, or whoever you're buying the house from, had recently remodeled Finished off the basement and added a bunch of additional square footage, remodeled the bathrooms or the kitchen, redid or added a bunch of curb appeal. Whatever it is, if you added value to the home, the desktop appraisal might not take those factors into account. So that's a situation where you actually might want an appraiser to come out. So if you do qualify and it seems like it's in your best interest to get a desktop appraisal, then, uh, I mean, it's probably the best option to go if that makes sense for you because it's likely gonna be a lot cheaper. In-person appraisals are generally around 750 to $1,500, depending on how big of a rush fee you're trying to pay to get the appraiser to come out, whereas a desktop appraisal can be just a few hundred dollars.

Reed: [29:58] Yeah, and I think th- those are pretty different numbers, but in the grand scheme of things, 75 to $1,000 when you're purchasing, you know, say a $700,000 home is not huge. So it's important to do whatever makes the most sense for your situation and your property, not just save the most money.

Jason: [30:19] Exactly. Totally agree.

Christian: [30:21] All right, well, that was a great episode. I feel like we really, really covered a lot today. Thank you Jason and Reed for stepping in to help. I feel like this really, really got people up to speed on what's going on in this market with rising interest rates and helped put them into perspective. And I would like to point out that while we are not economists or licensed appraisers, we are real estate agents. So if you really have more questions, we can help to an extent. Um, but we are not licensed appraisers. We are not economists, although Jason does play one on TV. So- Um, that's it for today. If you ever do want to chat with us, you can do that right on our website, AwesomeNossumGroup.com/schedule. You can schedule a strategy session with us where we can do that sold search that we responded to or that we talked about earlier. You can always attend our Beers and Home Buying class as well. That's just at beersandhomebuying.com (opens in a new tab). And you can always follow us on Instagram at awesomenossumgroup. So thank you for joining us on this episode of the Awesome in Seattle podcast. We post a new episode every other week, so we will see you again in two weeks. Thanks for listening.