Investing as a Family- How This Couple Created Passive Income and Freedom With Airbnb

Christian: [0:00] Hello, hello, and welcome to another episode of the Awesome in Seattle podcast. This is your host Christian Nossum with the Awesome Nossum group, and I am joined by my beautiful wife, Ms. Shannon Nossum.

Speaker 2: [0:11] Hello, hello.

Christian: [0:12] Thank you for joining me. Now, today, we have some very, very special guests joining all the way from the island of Maui. Thank you so much, Caroline and Mike Neubauer. They are hosting their own podcast called Our Family Invests, and it is an awesome podcast. You 100% need to subscribe if you have any desire to have financial independence at some point in your life. That is their whole goal. That is what they talk about. They interview different couples that are doing that, on that journey, and it is a fantastic podcast. So if that is something you are interested in, you should 100% follow up and watch their YouTube channel and their podcast. So let's get into it. So they have built a thriving Airbnb business. They achieved financial freedom in record time. What, five years or something like that? And they launched the podcast where they interview other entrepreneurial families doing the same thing. So let's get right into it

Speaker 3: [1:11] Thanks for coming on, Mike and Carolyn.

Speaker 4: [1:13] Guys, thank you for having us. You're amazing. We're excited to be here.

Speaker 3: [1:16] Yay. Yay, we're glad you're here.

Speaker 4: [1:19] Yeah.

Speaker 3: [1:20] Okay, walk us through the early days. How did you two decide that you wanted to pursue financial freedom, and how did that kind of evolve as time went on?

Speaker 4: [1:28] Sure. Um, you know, I, I, I don't think that we really had a, a plan towards financial freedom. It was more of like, we need to do something because we're exhausted, right? Mm. Like, I was a firefighter. I was working 24-hour shifts. You know, I, I would come home just drained, if I came home at all. A lot of times I had to hold back, 'cause they didn't have enough staff. And so w- you know, a lot of times we were working 36 hours, and then I'd come home for 12 and go back again the next morning. So I- I've always been really entrepreneurial, and I've… I knew that the firefighting career was probably not a long-term play for me, but I just didn't know what was next. So I had written a few books, and I saw that taste of, of passive income a little bit. But it, it really wasn't until I had a senior firefighter that, you know, started showing me the ropes with real estate investing. He had a, a few short-term rentals. And so, you know, that seemed so out of reach for somebody like us. And he kind of, you know, opened up our eyes to what was possible, and took me under his wing and, and basically showed me all of his data. And from that moment, I was just hooked, right? Like, I started reading every book, listening to every podcast, getting on every forum, you know, real estate meetups, all that stuff. And so I, I think that was kind of, you know, our way of getting out of that W2 grind. And, you know, it, it was never about getting rich, it was about playing the game our way. And, you know, for us, getting, getting back in, into a place where we were focusing on each other and building that life that we wanted to have together. So once we, we started down the real estate route, the short-term rentals and all that, it was… it wasn't, like, a matter of how it was gonna work out, it was just, it has to work out, so let's figure it out.

Speaker 2: [3:24] Yeah.

Speaker 3: [3:25] Wow. Carolyn, were you an agent at this time?

Speaker 2: [3:28] No. Oh, okay. What did you do? So that didn't come until much later.

Speaker 3: [3:32] Got it.

Christian: [3:32] Wow. So what were some of your first actual action steps, first moves that you guys made in this process?

Speaker 2: [3:39] Yeah. So once Mike had got so on fire and was, like, learning all this information, he of course wanted to share that with me, which I had no interest in real estate. I'd spent my life going to open houses, and I didn't like the idea of that sounding at all. Um, so yeah. So then actually reading the Rich Dad Poor Dad book- Mm-hmm … which Mike begged me to read, it really did flip that switch for me on, wait, have I been just looking at life wrong in, in where we could go? And so that kind of opened up the conversation, okay, let's talk more about this. Let's analyze deals. Super risk-adverse, like, the, uh, what is it? The, uh, squirrel mentality, like save the acorns. Mm-hmm. If you didn't spend it, it's, it's valuable. And so from that, after analyzing deals and realizing we didn't have any money to put down, we took equity from our home and we did a HELOC, and so that was kind of our step into getting to the short-term rentals. We added an ADU, which is what we call an ohana out here. Mm-hmm. And then once we were out of the living construction zone, we had it rented and realized, like, oh, we can, like, pair mortgage with this, and we can have a little bit of money saved. Like, let's definitely tap into this. And so that's kinda how it started for us.

Christian: [5:05] Yeah. That's awesome.

Speaker 3: [5:06] Yeah. I mean, it's incredible what you guys have been able to do, and I think using a HELOC, especially for your first project, is such an easy way in, 'cause hard money, like private money, those are really scary to people, but HELOCs are such a good, like, first step. So I think that's … I'm glad you shared that.

Speaker 2: [5:24] Yeah.

Speaker 3: [5:25] You built a really strong Airbnb portfolio since then. So how did you know that short-term rentals were the path? So you learned about them, and then did you explore other types of investing, or were you just like, "This is the one. This is what we wanna do"?

Speaker 4: [5:38] Yeah. I, I think, you know, when we, we started with real estate and, and we knew that we were gonna go down that route, I kind of laid everything out. And, and it, kind of what I call, like, a scale of passivity. And so on one side of the scale, I saw, you know, syndications, long-term rentals, things that are really, really passive, mailbox money almost, right? Mm-hmm. And at the other end of the scale is the stuff like, you know, your flips and your wholesaling and your ground-up development a- and all that kind of stuff. Really, really active side. And short-term rentals were kind of, they're definitely more on the active side. But what I liked about short-term rentals is that you, you actually hold the asset. So with, with flipping and with, you know, wholesaling and all that stuff, y- you're, you're in and you're out, and you're, you're- Getting a lot of cash flow, but you're not building wealth, you're not building a legacy. And so I always wanted to play the long-term game. So for us, it was always going to be, all right, short-term rentals are our way in, and then once we get to financial freedom, then we start moving towards passive. So in the last few years we've been selling off a lot of our short-term rentals to move into more syndications and more long-term rentals, midterm rentals, things like that. And, you know, even, you know, development and joint venture stuff where, where we're, you know, on the sidelines most of the time.

Christian: [7:02] Yeah. Yeah, it's fun being on the sidelines. You don't have to do anything.

Speaker 4: [7:05] Sure.

Christian: [7:07] So let's, let's go to the beginning. Let's talk about the first short-term rental that you guys purchased. What was kind of your big takeaway from that experience?

Speaker 2: [7:17] That we never wanted- Oh, God … to do it again.

Speaker 4: [7:21] Yeah, so that, that first one was fun. Uh, I mean, looking back it was fun. It was terrible while we were doing it, right? But we had the data, right? So that firefighter that, that took me under his wing, we knew exactly what we were after. We knew, you know, i- in Maui, in order to have a short-term rental, you have to be in a condo complex. It's virtually impossible to get a permit for a single family home. Mm-hmm. So we knew that there were certain condo complexes that were two bedroom, two bath units, but also had a lockout feature, meaning that you could split them into two separate units, and then you could rent a one bedroom and a studio and have a lot more income.

Speaker 2: [7:59] A duplex STR.

Speaker 3: [8:00] Yeah.

Speaker 4: [8:00] Yeah, kind of.

Speaker 2: [8:01] That's awesome.

Speaker 4: [8:02] But so we knew there was only two of them in South Maui that had that feature, and one of them was in Wailea and one of them was in Kihei. And so we kept eyes on two properties. That's it. Mm-hmm. And we waited, and we waited, and we waited until one showed up that, you know, smelled like cat urine and had clutter everywhere. And we're like- Love

Christian: [8:21] it … " Speaker 4: That's perfect." Smells like profit.

Speaker 4: [8:24] Yes. So, you know, we, we took that down. And, um, while we were under contract on this one, you know, we had a handyman that we had been working with for years just on little projects around the house, but he had become a good friend. Mm-hmm. And so we told him, it's like, "Hey, we're gonna renovate this place. We're gonna do all these things. You know, we're real excited. And we're, we're closing April 1st, right? So we, I'm giving us three months until, you know, July 1st. That's when we're gonna open the doors and we're gonna start, you know, renting this out to people." And so as the time got closer, we had already s- put this thing up on Airbnb before we had closed on it. And so, um- Mm-hmm … so it had to work, right?

Speaker 5: [9:02] Yeah.

Speaker 3: [9:02] Yeah.

Speaker 4: [9:03] So April 1st- Not recommending. Yeah. We, we don't recommend. What did, what did you

Speaker 3: [9:05] use for photos?

Speaker 4: [9:07] Yeah. We, we actually had photos of the unit, uh, at first, like the ones- Before … from, like- Before … Zillow and whatnot. Yeah. And we just put in the captions like, "Hey, we're buying this. We're renovating it. Stick through it. It's a, the best deal on Maui. Book now," right? "It's gonna be awesome. We'll update the pictures." And so we did that. Don't smell. We didn't even own it. So, uh, so we do that and then, um, you know, we close on the thing on April 1st and I call up that handyman. I was like, "You ready to go, dude? I'm ready to go." And, uh, he's like, "I, I thought you said July 1st." I was like, "No, no, no. We gotta go July 1st. Like, that's when it's open. We've got bookings already." We've got like 18 bookings at this time, by the time we closed. And so he's like, "Oh, I'm, I'm so sorry, dude. I, I, I thought you said July 1st. I'm totally booked until July 1st. I s- I…" You know. Wow. At this point we're like, "Oh, man. Okay, uh, now what?" And so everyone we called was, like, either way overpriced, we can't afford it-

Speaker 3: [10:10] Yeah … Speaker 4: or just not available. And so we're like, "Okay, there's, there's no backup plan. We've, we've exhausted everything." All of our, you know, all of our savings, all of our 401, like, everything is into this property. And so it was a YouTube university. Mm-hmm. And for us it was like, "Okay, well, uh, I, I don't even know how to turn a screwdriver, but we're gonna figure it out." So, so we, you know, we figured out how to scrape ceilings, popcorn ceilings. Okay, let's get them out. We figured out how to do electrical, plumbing, all those kinds of things, and, and we basically did everything ourselves. There w- I mean- Wow … there was sleepless nights, there was, you know- Sure … arguments. There was, you know, I, I was coming straight from the fire department after working 24, 36 hours and just working there until I had to go back to the station. Wow. It, it was, it was brutal.

Speaker 2: [11:01] Yeah.

Speaker 4: [11:02] And we said we'd never do it again, and then the money started rolling in. Mm. Right? And, and then it was like, "All right, well, maybe, maybe one more time."

Christian: [11:14] Oh,

Speaker 2: [11:14] my

Speaker 3: [11:14] gosh, you guys have such hustle. That's so impressive.

Christian: [11:16] That is so impressive.

Speaker 2: [11:17] Yeah. Yeah. And we didn't have plumbing for a long time in there, too, 'cause everything was disconnected. Yeah. Yeah. So it was like shower at the pool, go back to work.

Speaker 4: [11:25] Yeah, that's

Speaker 2: [11:26] true. So, and, like, I learned how to make dinners on the barbecue.

Speaker 4: [11:30] Yep. Electrical.

Speaker 2: [11:30] Oiled dinners.

Speaker 4: [11:31] We had to figure out electrical on our, on our own, and, you know, this is almost 10 years ago now. Wow. And so far the place still hasn't burned down, so, you know, that, that's a win. Yeah.

Speaker 3: [11:41] Yeah.

Speaker 2: [11:41] So some mistakes learned. Yeah.

Speaker 3: [11:43] Yeah. Yeah. So clearly you guys have tons of hustle. Once you got that up and running, and then you, and then you scaled with further properties, what kind of systems did you have so that this didn't take over your life?

Speaker 2: [11:57] Yeah, so it did take over our lives. And our goal after the first one was, like, if we are ever going to do this again, I- we were, we had those hard conversations. Like, if we are chasing money, not worth it at all. And so we decided to get systems in place. We decided with the goal to buy something every six months, which we stuck on that path. And, you know, eventually we had to leverage partnerships to make that happen, but at the beginning we were doing everything. We, we both had Four Seasons Hotels and Resorts backgrounds- Mm … so that helped with the hospitality standpoint, and that was one of my majors. And so the guest interactions, we, I mean, we had over 1,000 five-star reviews. So we were very good at that. We were very hands-on, almost too hands-on for the price point. But from everything from sourcing to cleaning to guest interaction to laundry to everything, we were doing, and so that's where we hit burnout, and the systems had to come in. Yeah. Because at any given point we were dealing with 12 incoming guests and outgoing. Yeah. And so, yeah, it was, I mean, folding towels in one hand, nursing Nico in the other, like, it was just not ideal. So we, we learned out of necessity in order to survive.

Speaker 4: [13:16] And we, we started putting those systems in place- Yeah … kind of early, right? Like, the cleaning thing was, that- Three months in … that's three months, right? Yeah. We can't clean these things and manage them. No. And, and we started figuring out ways to systematize, and then, you know, we did a mastermind with Brandon Turner and Tarrel Yarber. Mm-hmm. And Tarrel kind of gave us a behind-the-scenes of how he systematizes his projects, and that was really eye-opening for me, is like, whoa, you do all of that for each project? You can do that?

Speaker 3: [13:47] Mm-hmm.

Speaker 4: [13:47] And then it was like, okay, we can do that, too. Let's go. And that's when it became, like, a lot easier to scale. Yeah. Right? Because at that point it was like, I don't know if we can handle another short-term rental. Mm-hmm. But once we put the systems in place, it was like, nah, just plug it into the machine.

Speaker 2: [14:02] Yeah, and that, and that helped, I mean, some of the, like, tangible examples were, um, building the inventory systems, the dynamic pricing. At one point we had five VAs, so, like, there were different systems that came into play to really give us our time back and also not let anything fall through the cracks. And, and kind of ask that question, that, like if we, do we have to do it or is there a way that we can have someone else handle it? And that kind of was our game changer.

Christian: [14:32] Yeah, so it sounds like you took- What you had built yourself, like jobs- Right … and then you turned it into, and you built-

Speaker 2: [14:39] 100% … Speaker: a business. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 4: [14:41] Which- Yeah … Speaker: that's so impressive. W- we've always, like this may be the wrong way to do it, it's, it's probably not the-

Speaker 2: [14:46] Smartest … Speaker 4: the smartest way, but we've always wanted to be the ones to, or at least I have, to know every aspect of the business so that when I hand it off, I know what they need to do. Now, they can do the job better than I can. Mm-hmm.

Speaker 4: [14:59] But I know how to do it if something goes wrong, right? Or if I have to jump in, I can. Or if I have to train someone else, I can do that.

Speaker 2: [15:08] Yeah. And honestly, too, I think that that has served us really well because we actually understand what we're trying to achieve. So when we're conveying that to someone, we have on the ground knowledge, like, here's where this goes and the placement and the shelf. Like, we know all of that stuff inside and out. Mm-hmm. And also doing inspections for further down properties that we're inspecting. When we're talking to inspectors, they don't expect me to understand what I'm talking about or the drywall or the, the Hardie Boarding, but we now do because of experience.

Speaker 5: [15:40] Yeah.

Speaker 2: [15:41] Yeah. Bittersweet.

Speaker 3: [15:43] Absolutely. You talked about that you had your son, who's such a great kid, we met him.

Speaker 2: [15:48] Mm-hmm.

Speaker 3: [15:49] Kinda early on, he was there for all this. So how do you integrate him into what you do?

Speaker 2: [15:53] Yeah, I think early on it was just a matter of, like, there was no help. There was no parents around, and so it was just us, so he had to come with us. Mm-hmm. Especially if Mike was at the station. So I think a lot of it was not necessarily intentional at the beginning, it was just part of our family does life together and this is what we're doing. Mm-hmm.

Christian: [16:16] Yeah.

Speaker 3: [16:17] Yeah.

Christian: [16:17] What are some of the intentional things that you guys passed along to him or continue to pass along to him?

Speaker 4: [16:22] Oh, that's a great question. You know, we try to be open books.

Christian: [16:27] Mm-hmm.

Speaker 4: [16:27] And so, y- you know, Nico is nine, and he's like most nine-year-olds, right? The, the most important thing in the world to him is Fortnite. And it's not to me. But we try to talk through what we're doing as a business and why we're doing it, and we bring him in and, and everything is an open book, like I said, right? Money, what we're spending on things, why we're spending it, what the returns are going to be. And so he, from time to time, he will come in and he will ask the questions, right? The questions that show us that he can think like an entrepreneur, too. Mm. And he hasn't really taken a full hold of, of that kind of lifestyle or anything yet. And again, he's nine, so like, you know, I'm not, not super disappointed with that.

Speaker 2: [17:17] Yet.

Speaker 4: [17:18] But we, we know that he is grasping some of it, and that's all we can do. We want him to be a kid, but we also want to have, show that nothing is, is off the table. Like, you can ask us anything. We're gonna bring you to our units, and we're gonna show you what we're doing. And, you know, from s- sometimes we ask him his opinion on things. Like, "What would you do in this situation?" Just to kind of get him more thinking like that.

Speaker 3: [17:44] Yeah.

Speaker 2: [17:44] Yeah. The, the caught not taught, you know? And so, um, also, I mean, just last night we're having a conversation 'cause he wants to buy a dirt bike. Uh, it's, uh, the different Sega Genesis now, right? Yeah. And so, uh, yeah, so he wants to buy a dirt bike. It's on his heart, mind, and soul every day, an electric dirt bike, and they're like $2,000 with the gear. Oh. So it's not a- an easy purchase. Mommy doesn't support the idea of it, but if he earns it, then we're okay with it. And one way he asked us yesterday was if he could clean out this, uh, dilapidated vehicle that my parents have that's been sitting for, I don't know, th- five years. And we have no idea of condition. It's filthy. He wants to clean it up and sell it. And so we're like- Actually, I love that idea. You gotta clean the inside and out. It's going to take you hours to do. Like- Yeah … you can't complain about it. You can get the profits. And as we're talking through, you know, Mommy's thinking about, like, all the levels of clean that it has to go through, and he's like, "Well, how much does a car wash cost?" And so I'm like, "Oh, I love that." Yeah. That's great. That's a good ROI.

Christian: [19:02] Yeah.

Speaker 2: [19:02] So it, it is… it's in there, and that's fun to see, where you're just… you don't really know all that they're absorbing.

Speaker 4: [19:09] Oh. So, you know, the, the funny thing is with, with Nico, and, and to continue on that path, is, like, this dirt bike, right? $2,000 is a lot of money. That is. And so we kind of were brainstorming with him, like, some of the things he could do to earn money, and we, we kind of came up with a bunch of ideas, and his first one was, like, lemonade stand, right? Mm. We're like, "Uh, it's gonna take you a long time- … with a lemonade stand, and you're not just, you know, you're not a cute little kid anymore. You're kind of a big kid." Yeah. Um, so anyway, he's like, "Nope, don't wanna do anything that's gonna take me time." Hm. He's got this $1,000 an hour mindset. Yeah.

Speaker 3: [19:46] Nice. Wow. Which,

Speaker 4: [19:47] great. So instead of that- Yeah … he's like, "I'm just gonna lay on the couch and do nothing then." And, um, we're like, "Well, what if you built a business?" Because we don't have, like, curbside recycling here. So I was like, "Well, what if you built a business, and you go around to all the neighbors, and you put a flyer up saying, 'Hey, I'll take your recyclables off your hands for you,' all this kind of stuff?" He's like, "Okay, okay. That's a good idea." I was like, "You could probably, you could probably raise $2,000 if you hustle in a few weeks, maybe, maybe a month or two." And he's like, "Nah."

Christian: [20:16] He wasn't wrong.

Speaker 4: [20:18] Yeah, so I'm like, "This kid is so lazy." And then last night when he starts coming up with this car idea, I was like, "Oh, maybe I'm thinking too small." This kid, he's maybe a, you know, like I said, $1,000 an hour thinker. This is great. Wow. Okay. I'm good with that. Go ahead and sell the car. Yeah. Oh, can I take it to a car wash? Yeah, you could. That's brilliant. Who not how, brother, let's go.

Speaker 5: [20:41] Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. That's amazing.

Speaker 2: [20:44] So you just never know.

Speaker 5: [20:46] Yeah.

Speaker 2: [20:46] The exposure is there. The conversations are there. You know, when he is ready, he can ask us anything he needs to.

Christian: [20:53] Mm-hmm.

Speaker 3: [20:54] Yeah.

Christian: [20:54] That's super cool.

Speaker 3: [20:56] So one thing I love about what you guys are doing is you have a podcast where you talk about families and entrepreneurial families. So you've talked to a lot of incredible families. Are there any standout themes or takeaways that you've had from these conversations? Or anything you're like, "Oh my gosh, we should do that. Please share." Hm. Do you have anything good?

Speaker 2: [21:15] Uh, I think one of the biggest takeaways that I've had is that there is no perfect right or wrong way to build a family and a business, and that's super cool to me. And that's… I, I, we often relate to real estate because that's, uh, such a big part of our lives, but there are so many avenues and, um, that whole different strokes for different folks really works. And I will say, um, that that's really encouraging because there are so many different ways to do life and to learn from each other. Another thing is resilience. So many of these families, I would say all of them, have been through trials, health scares, failed launches, financial stress, the works. But their, their common goal to, to be aligned, to have the same goals as a family, they run towards the hard stuff and they get through it, and that's what anchors them. So that's really encouraging because life is messy. Mm-hmm. But there… It, it is always figureoutable. There are always solutions, and sometimes, you know, rallying around families that have that mentality, that mindset That helps you in those times, and then also to build that as a foundation for your family is just, like, that's what propels you forward, so.

Speaker 4: [22:38] Yeah.

Christian: [22:39] Yeah.

Speaker 3: [22:39] I love that.

Christian: [22:40] Was there ever, like, a specific moment where something a guest on your podcast said that was just like, "Whoa," like light bulb or…

Speaker 4: [22:49] You know, I, I feel like we've had a lot of moments like that, that I'm like, "Oh, that's so good. Oh, I'm gonna keep that. Oh, I'm gonna use that." You know, one of them that I, I come back to, we had this one guest and he, he was always saying, "I, I wanna build a life that I don't wanna retire from."

Christian: [23:05] Mm.

Speaker 4: [23:05] And that's something, you know, I, I've heard that before, but he just kept repeating it so many times that I was like, "That's so good." Mm-hmm. And the way I think about it is, like, that, that's really what we're doing right now. We love what we're doing. Yeah. We love real estate. We love podcasting. That's great, and we have since we started this journey. But I also feel like life is like a river, right? There are twists and there are turns, and what is enjoyable today might not align with us tomorrow. So I'm not the type of person that's gonna try and straighten the river. So what I mean by that is if real estate or podcasting starts to feel heavy at some point or another opportunity arises, then I'm gonna follow the current. But what I'm gonna do is I'm, I'm always gonna make sure that my family is in the boat.

Christian: [23:57] Yeah.

Speaker 4: [23:57] Does that make sense?

Christian: [23:58] Yeah. That's

Speaker 5: [23:58] great.

Christian: [23:58] That's beautiful. That's awesome. I love that. Yeah. Yeah, I never heard that before, but that's a great analogy for it.

Speaker 4: [24:03] Mm-hmm. Thanks, man.

Christian: [24:05] All right. So you two, I'm gonna let you go, 'cause we've been talking for quite a while. You guys have an awesome story. Thank you for having us on your podcast.

Speaker 4: [24:14] Yes.

Christian: [24:15] Which again- You're welcome … Our, Our Family Invests, it is a great podcast. I've listened to numerous of the episodes. I am following it. You guys do a great job interviewing some very much more entertaining people than us. So thankfully, you have a lot of other episodes that people can listen to. And yeah, if, if you as a listener are, are interested in reaching that financial independence goal, there is a lot to learn out there, especially from these two. So please subscribe to their podcast, Our Family Invests. It is fantastic.

Speaker 3: [24:46] Thank you.

Christian: [24:46] You guys have had some really, like I said, pretty prominent, very, very prominent people on your show, so well done. Thank you. Very nice.

Speaker 3: [24:54] Yeah, thank

Speaker 4: [24:54] you.

Speaker 3: [24:54] If any of our listeners wanna get ahold of you, what's the best way to do that?

Speaker 4: [24:58] Probably through Instagram, I would say. We're probably most active on there @ourfamilyinvests, and there's links on there to everything else that we do. Yeah.

Speaker 3: [25:08] If it- if our listeners are, like, inspired by this episode, I hope you are. Um, just seeing other families that are doing what you guys are doing. I know a lot of people kind of dream of these things, but to hear a story of a family doing this can be really powerful. Just reach out to these guys if you have any questions, and listen to their podcast and hear about other families.

Christian: [25:26] Yes,

Speaker 3: [25:27] exactly. They're doing life a little different.

Christian: [25:28] Yep. Yeah. Yeah. That's a good way to go. Yes. Well, thank you for, for joining us. And for all our listeners, we'll see you on the next episode of the Awesome in Seattle podcast. And thanks again, Mike and Carolyn. Appreciate you.

Speaker 4: [25:41] Oh, hi. Thank you, guys. Have a great day.

Christian: [25:43] All right. You too.