Your Agent Matters- How to Find One Who Actually Knows Their Stuff

Christian: [0:00] Hello, hello, and welcome to another episode of the Awesome in Seattle podcast. This is your host Christian Nossum of the Awesome Nossum Group at Wilson Realty Exchange, Inc, and today I am joined by…

Joanna: [0:10] Hello, I am Joanna Beecher on the Awesome Nossum team. Woo-hoo. And today we're talking about something that doesn't get nearly enough attention, and that is how to interview a real estate agent.

Christian: [0:23] Exactly. Most people just assume that they have to go with who they know or the first agent that responds to some Zillow or Redfin inquiry. But if you are buying, selling, specifically looking at condos to buy or sell, or investing, your agent and the specific agent you are hiring matters a lot.

Joanna: [0:44] It sure does, so we're gonna break it down by situation for you today.

Christian: [0:48] Yes.

Joanna: [0:48] And we're gonna start with number one for the buyers- Mm-hmm … right? About how to find an advocate and not just a tour guide.

Christian: [0:57] Yeah.

Joanna: [0:57] All right? If you're a buyer, your agent isn't just there to unlock doors.

Christian: [1:02] No.

Joanna: [1:02] They should be a strategic advisor helping you win the right house at the right price.

Christian: [1:08] Mm-hmm. So there's some specific questions that you should always ask your agent when you are a buyer, and these are those questions. First, what are your strategies in a multiple offer situation? How are they gonna handle it? How are they gonna best serve you to make sure that your offer gets, uh, accepted versus the six others or the three others or the 20 others?

Joanna: [1:29] And it could just be one other person, but- It could … and it's not always the highest price.

Christian: [1:33] No,

Joanna: [1:33] it is not. So, and they should help you understand that.

Christian: [1:35] Mm-hmm. Another one is how is your process different from other agents? And then ask them to tell you about that. The third, how do you help me narrow down my buy box? If my partner and I disagree, how are you gonna help us get on the same page?

Joanna: [1:52] People don't think about that one enough, I don't think.

Christian: [1:54] I 100% agree, and in our 20-year plus career of doing this, this is something that I realized pretty quick, you gotta get both couples, or both parts of the couple- Mm-hmm … on the same page. 'Cause the faster you do, the faster they're able to- Mm … kinda make a joint decision, which is- Yeah … what this is. This is not a one person leads the, the cart. You gotta have both on board-

Joanna: [2:17] Exactly … Speaker: there. And then last, ask that agent what cities and neighborhoods they feel the most confident working in, and where they most often work. Because just because they're licensed in the State of Washington doesn't mean that because they live in Spokane, but they're licensed in Washington, they can help you buy in Seattle. They technically can, but should they? But should they?

Christian: [2:41] Yeah. Because they probably don't understand the market in Seattle. Just like us, we're not gonna help you buy something in Eastern Washington because we do not understand that market. Like, we're not gonna be the best agent for you, and we'll tell you that.

Joanna: [2:53] 100% we'll tell you

Christian: [2:54] that. But some agents are so hungry for business, they're never gonna admit they don't necessarily know the areas that you're looking in. So before maybe you start sharing where that is, you should ask them where they feel the most confident.

Joanna: [3:07] Exactly. I mean, a good agent is going to talk you through financing. Mm-hmm. They're gonna recommend great lenders, and help you interpret inspection reports, and write competitive offers. We're not just door openers. No. No one should be. No one. Uh, we're deal structures- Yeah … and you should understand that.

Christian: [3:26] You should also find out when they're available to actually help you look at homes. Good idea. Are they available? Are they always available on the weekends? Are they available in the evenings?

Are they only available 9: [3:36] 00 to 5:00? Do they have some other part-time job or a full-time job on the side, like, and this is their side gig, being a real estate agent, which that's a lot of people. And if that's okay with you, that's great, but if that's not okay with you and you want someone that can answer your questions or show you homes when new homes come on the market, you need to understand what it is you're getting into.

Joanna: [3:58] Exactly. Yep. Okay, I think we are moving on to our next section, which is for sellers. Mm-hmm. Strategy and preparation are everything in this, okay? Yes. So you're going to want an agent who's not just listing your house, but positioning it to sell for top dollar, right? Mm-hmm. And we've got a really great, great questions to ask.

Christian: [4:23] Yes. So some of the questions you should ask are how do you decide on pricing strategy and timing?

Joanna: [4:29] This is huge.

Christian: [4:31] This is huge, and most people do not really fully understand that. Putting a house on the market over a holiday weekend or a weekend where there's, if it's, like, a, a house that would be geared towards maybe someone that has kids that are in school, if that school is on a break for that week, like s- spring break or midwinter break or something like that, and you put it on that week, you might miss out on a ton of potential buyers. So understanding these little nuances in your specific market for your specific house is a huge deal. So- Mm-hmm … make sure you really understand if that agent understands these things, uh, or if they're just like Trying to get it on the market as soon as possible, 'cause they really need to make some money, so they just want you to put it on as soon as they can. Another question, what do they have to offer? Are they paying for professional photos, 3D Matterport tours, video tours? Are they doing staging? Are they doing any so- sort of social media? Um, do they make custom for sale signs like we do? Which the answer is no, no one else really does. So, um-

Joanna: [5:38] They don't.

Christian: [5:39] No. What are they doing to help your house separate itself from the crowd? Do they have a different listing description or a different way of writing a listing description that, that helps? Do they add captions to photo- Like, all these different things really do add up, and unless you actually know what to ask, you would never know.

Joanna: [6:01] Are they gonna make sure you get open houses-

Christian: [6:04] Mm-hmm … Joanna: in? Mm-hmm. 'Cause not all agents do that either. Nope. And that's a great way for people to have their properties seen, especially during, you know, this warmer weather, you're gonna get a lot more foot traffic in some areas. Mm-hmm. And making sure that people have an option to just kind of stroll in is great. Yep. I actually just spoke with an agent, um, that I was listing a property. I asked, uh, a similar home recently sold, I called that agent just to get a feel for the market, what happened, um, all that fun stuff, and I was like, "So how did your open houses go?" And she just laughed. She goes, "I don't do open houses. What are you talking about? I just let buyers go see it when they want to with their agent." I was like, "Interesting. Okay." Okay. "Good to know."

Joanna: [6:46] Mm-hmm.

Christian: [6:46] It kind of shocked me. It is interesting. She,

Joanna: [6:47] like, laughed at

Christian: [6:48] me for asking that.

Joanna: [6:50] Okay. That's a, a strange approach.

Christian: [6:52] That's a, it's a different approach. So another question to ask, do they recommend that you get a pre-inspection and a sewer scope, and then give that out to potential buyers? This is a strategy depending on your specific market and what's going on- Mm-hmm … this could be something that you should do, and maybe it's something that you shouldn't do. It just depends on what's going on in your market. And then last, how do you deal with multiple offers if you end up getting more than one? And do you recommend doing an offer review date or just getting first come, first serve offers? What do they recommend? And this is going to be market dependent, so there should be no blanket answer. This should be, hey, it depends on what's going on with the market.

Joanna: [7:37] Exactly. That last one is big-

Christian: [7:40] Mm-hmm

Joanna: [7:40] because that can really, you know, just adjust how people even want to approach going to tour your listing- Yep … honestly. And so just to kinda go back to, like, a pre-inspection can help you avoid surprises.

Christian: [7:54] Totally.

Joanna: [7:55] Right? It's gonna help you not have to negotiate inside the deal if you're the seller. Mm-hmm. And you want to avoid that at all costs most likely. Yep. Yeah, that's that negotiation drama we like to avoid. And a sewer scope in addition to the pre-inspection is also, or can also be a great idea, especially on a lot of the older homes-

Christian: [8:13] Yeah … Joanna: just so that the buyer knows what they're getting into, and that is also creating a trust. Mm-hmm.

Joanna: [8:19] And that's huge in, you know, just buying a home in general, I think.

Christian: [8:23] Yeah. Yeah, and this is, again, this is something that you may or may not want to do depending on- Mm-hmm … the market. Um, I was just talking yesterday, last night, with a past client who called me up. They're looking to sell in the next month to two months. They were talking about timing, and that is one of the questions that they asked me. "Should we do this?" And I said, "Well, do you think there's anything big that might be coming up?" And they were like, "Yeah, we think maybe the roof might need to be redone." I was like, "All right, so here's the pros and cons of getting a pre-inspection done and learning that your roof needs to be redone before you can sell." When I explain that, you know, if you don't get a pre-inspection and disclose that the roof might need to be redone or find out that it might need to be redone, that buyer, once they get a loan, the appraiser could say, "Hey, this roof is shot. We're not giving you a loan." Mm-hmm. And that right there could kill the deal. That might make that buyer back out, and now you're coming back on the market. It's got a stain on it. Your listing online has a stain on it, because it looks like it went active for sale, then it went pending, and then it went back active, and that is what I was just saying, a stain. And some- some buyers are like, "Well, something's wrong with that house. I'm not moving forward."

Joanna: [9:37] Yeah. It's a, it's a big old… Yeah. As you keep saying, it's a stain on that house- Yes … and people don't wanna deal with that.

Christian: [9:44] Yep. So I recommended that they do get that done, and probably do it sooner than later- Mm-hmm … so that if they do want to get a new roof, if it does in fact need it, 'cause they're just assuming it does.

Joanna: [9:54] Right.

Christian: [9:55] If it does, now they actually have some time, because currently it's summer as we're recording this, and summer is the time that most people do their roofs.

Joanna: [10:02] Exactly. ' Speaker: Cause it's not raining. Makes sense. In our area, that's a big deal. So- Mm … so roofers are kinda backed up, especially good ones that are- Yeah not as expensive as the super expensive guys, who have less time, so. Another question is, is your agent going to help you coordinate any repairs or cleaning or, like we said, the staging, and all the moving parts? Because you're not just hiring a negotiator. You are, but that's not the only thing you're hiring. You're also hiring a project manager. And if you're moving, say, across the country or out of the city to a different spot, and you can't easily check on the property, is your agent gonna be there to help you and be the one, the boots on the ground, that you can't be there for? Exactly. They want, you wanna make sure if you are leaving before your house sells- Mm-hmm uh, you want somebody to be able to check on it, make sure that everything is still looking good. Every week that it- Yeah … you know, is on the market, and make sure that it's a secure home as well.

Christian: [11:01] Exactly.

Joanna: [11:02] Always wanna make sure of that. Mm-hmm. All right, segment three. It's a special category of condo buyers and sellers.

Christian: [11:11] Mm-hmm. All

Joanna: [11:11] right? This is

Christian: [11:12] a special category-

Joanna: [11:12] It sure is … for sure. It's a different ballgame.

Christian: [11:15] It is.

Joanna: [11:15] And mostly because HOA is involved. Mm-hmm. And HOA is very specific. I know a lot of people have a very triggered response when you say HOA, and I don't want you to think it's that. It's just you have to understand it a little bit better, right? So your agent needs to understand this-

Christian: [11:32] Yes … Joanna: much, like, the complexities of this much more- Yeah, yeah … than you would think. Yes. So yeah, what are some of those questions? So as a condo buyer, and then in a second I'll go over condo sellers. So as a condo buyer, your agent should be asking questions about the HOA, and trying to figure out if there are any red flags in the HOA docs. They need to be able to understand when they're looking through those.

Joanna: [11:56] Yeah.

Christian: [11:56] Well, first, they need to understand they need to look through those.

Joanna: [11:59] Yeah, that's the, that's the first part.

Christian: [12:01] That's the first part. Then, once they look through them, what are they actually looking for?

Joanna: [12:05] Yes.

Christian: [12:06] And how do they spot those red flags? Another one, they need to know how to evaluate HOA reserves. They need to understand what a special assessment is, if there are any coming up, if there are current special assessments. Are those all out-of-pocket? Is that going to be paid by a loan that the HOA is getting? Like, there's so much complexity with this. Yep. And then another one, are they familiar with condo financing, whether the building is FHA or VA approved, if it's on the blacklist for getting financing, which that is a newer s- phenomenon that we've- Yes, it is … been encountering the last couple years.

Joanna: [12:44] And a lot of agents have no clue about it. Zero idea. It's shocking how many don't know about it.

Christian: [12:50] It's kind of crazy that they don't understand. They'll be listed, and they don't.

Joanna: [12:54] They're listed, exactly. Yes. I've been running into that for the past- Yes … year and a half.

Christian: [12:58] Yeah.

Joanna: [12:59] Yeah. The right condo agent, buying or selling, is part detective, part translator. They'll help you interpret everything from rental caps to budget line items. Mm-hmm. I mean, HOAs are very lengthy. They're very dry.

Christian: [13:15] Yes.

Joanna: [13:15] You'll be doing a lot of reading yourself as the buyer. And you'll be falling

Christian: [13:18] asleep while you read.

Joanna: [13:19] 100%. If you need, like, help falling asleep, just start reading it right before bed. You'll be fine. But, you know, those are very important things to, to look at.

Christian: [13:27] Yeah. Yeah, you don't want to get under contract on a condo and then later find out from your lender, if you're not paying cash, that- You're not even able to get the loan- Mm … because the condo isn't financeable. And- And that happens a

Joanna: [13:44] lot. Exactly. That is, I mean, that's a huge piece that I talk about- Mm … with my buyers that are looking at condo-specific properties. Mm-hmm. And, you know, that's, we just tackle that right away, you know?

Christian: [13:57] And this also brings up a point that even if you do have cash, you should be looking- Mm-hmm … at if the condo is going to be financeable. Because- Yeah … whenever you go to sell, most likely it's going to be a financed buyer, someone getting a loan, and if you can't get a loan, you just decreased the, the buyer pool dramatically, which means you're decreasing how much money you are going to be able to make off that sale.

Joanna: [14:22] Yeah. Yeah.

Christian: [14:22] All right, so let's go over selling a condo. So, are, is your agent going to help you learn how to get all of the HOA docs prepped? Do they even understand what that means? So that's one question.

Joanna: [14:39] Um-

Christian: [14:39] When

Joanna: [14:39] do you order your resale certificate?

Christian: [14:41] Yeah, when do you do it? Should you do it after you get under contract- How

Joanna: [14:44] long does that take? … Speaker: or before? How much does it cost? How do you do it? All of these things are things your agent should know. Mm-hmm. And then also, how are they gonna market your condo differently than they do, say, a townhouse, or a single-family house, or a DADU, or whatever? How do they do it differently to make it stand apart from the crowd? Yep.

Christian: [15:06] All right.

Joanna: [15:08] Segment four. Segment four. Uh, so this is for our investors, okay? And understanding how this is a business relationship.

Christian: [15:16] Yeah. So investors are a little bit different than most buyers, and the reason why is because when you're working with, as an agent, working- Mm-hmm … with an investor, that, you gotta know that that investor is working with probably 10 other agents, and the reason why is because it's a little different as an investor. So I will buy any property that anyone brings my way- Yeah … even if I didn't find it, as an investor, because they might have some- method of finding deals that I can't find, and I'm happy to pay them for that.

Joanna: [15:51] Right. And as an investor, you know, it's also you're just you can't have eyes everywhere- Mm … all the time, and there's so many off-market things happening, correct? Yes. So it's like you just want, you know, someone that is bringing you something great to come your way. Mm-hmm. Right? And that's very important when you're talking about the buyer brokerage services agreement. So- Yes … if you're an investor, you don't wanna sign an exclusive buyer brokerage services agreement. You just, it doesn't make sense for you to do that. That means just- It's not in your

Christian: [16:24] best interest … Joanna: working with one agent exclusively, right? Mm-hmm. So traditional buyers, it's a little different. They should sign one. But since investors tend to work with multiple agents at a time due to the nature of the business- Yeah 'cause it is a business- Mm … you can really make a problem for yourself as an investor if you do sign one. So you may d- w- you are gonna, just as Christian brought up, you're gonna work with different agents, but different types of deals in different markets. So you definitely will need to sign, as everyone does, a buyer brokerage services agreement, but non-exclusive would be the way to go on that. Yeah, as an investor.

Joanna: [16:57] Mm-hmm.

Christian: [16:57] So some of the questions you should ask, h- what kind of comps do you run, and how fast can you get them to me? Speed is a huge deal when you're an investor. Mm-hmm. You need to know quickly if this deal makes sense or not because sometimes you only have a few hours to decide on if you're gonna make an offer or not. You don't have days or maybe, like, a week to decide that. And so- Yeah … you need to understand, is your agent going to be able to provide those comps quickly? Yeah. 'Cause that's what you need in order to make an informed decision. Next, will you be comfortable making low-ball offers for me? This makes some agents get real uncomfortable real quick Because they're like, "Well, it's my reputation, and I don't wanna upset this other agent by or this other- this seller by- by tarnishing my name. I can't do that." Well, then you're not the right agent for me. Mm-hmm. That's kinda how I say it. Will you do walkthroughs, take videos, or bring blue tape to a final inspection? So a lot of times investors like, "I'm not always in town, and if I'm out of town and there's a property that you're bringing to me, I'm gonna need you to go out there and do a video. Either FaceTime me or make- do a walkthrough video, take photos, send all that to me. I'm gonna need that." And then blue tape. So, like, for instance, I have a client right now. He bought a flip. He is almost done. He's, like, 98% done with it. And I went through, spent about an hour and a half, went through with blue tape and marked every single little imperfection throughout the entire home, whether it was a ding in the wall or they missed painting, like, one small section of trim right by the fridge.

Joanna: [18:43] Mm-hmm.

Christian: [18:44] They just missed painting that. Hmm. It wasn't too far off, but it was a different sheen of paint. And at the right light you could tell, and it was obvious then. Yeah. But most of the time you couldn't tell. So I just went through and I spent a ton of time just helping him see all that stuff, and it's also nice for him because I'm the bad guy as his agent, not him being the bad guy going back to his contractors going, "Hey, I need you to fix all these blue tape things."

Joanna: [19:08] Right. ' Speaker: Cause it looked like a piece of Jackson Pollock art after- … I was out of there with spots everywhere. But you want that because then you wanna make sure that you're getting the best offers.

Christian: [19:17] Yes.

Joanna: [19:17] Right? Because that's gonna- 'Cause buyers will see that … Speaker: exactly, 'cause buyers are gonna walk through, and they're not gonna notice all these little imperfections. But they might in a certain way, and that- If that wasn't done … will bring down their opinion of

Christian: [19:27] it.

Joanna: [19:27] Exactly. Right? If

Christian: [19:28] it wasn't done. They see little weird things like that that aren't done, and then they question the quality of-

Joanna: [19:34] Exactly … the work. That's- that'll really mess with how people wanna make offers.

Christian: [19:38] Yes. Another question to ask your investor agent, "Can you help me run performas or offer any design suggestions or do walkthroughs and help me work out the- the floor plan? Will you be open to giving me suggestions on what the floor plan should be?" I just did this last week as well. Mm-hmm. Met, again, for two hours with these clients who bought a flip, and they were just like, "Ah, this bathroom is- is just, it's the downstairs bathroom. There's two bedrooms down here, but it's not a big deal because they're just gonna be kid bedrooms, and this bathroom doesn't need to be that big." And I was like, "You guys have a ton of space right here. Why don't we expand it? You could easily expand it. You have the ability, and that would make this feel so much better. Even though it is a kid bathroom, it's still gonna feel so much better, and eventually those kids are gonna be teenagers, and maybe they're also gonna have guests." Exactly. Like, you're gonna have guests that stay there that use that bathroom. So it's not necessarily only a kid bathroom.

Joanna: [20:37] Yeah.

Christian: [20:37] And they were like, "Oh, that's a good point." So.

Joanna: [20:40] Can't just brush that off.

Christian: [20:41] No. No. No, exactly. And then the biggest question to ask, "Are you an investor yourself? And what kind of investments do you do?" And if they haven't done them before, maybe they're not the right investor agent for you, because they're not gonna be able to give you a lot of advice that maybe you should be taking.

Joanna: [21:00] Right? And you know, that- that's also leads kind of to the next thing, like- Mm-hmm … what kind of network does this- does the agent have, right? Yep. And if they're an investor already themselves, that, you know, lends to think that they probably have a great network- Mm … that you can also lean into. You want your agent to also be able to introduce you to people like contractors and lenders, property managers, that sort of thing. And one big piece I think you should pay attention to is if they have that network, then the off-market deals- Which c- are a great option. Yeah. You know, that's a good opportunity for you as an investor. Like, you want to be able to have access to that.

Christian: [21:38] Exactly. An investor-focused agent should speak the language of ROI, cashflow, zoning, and they should be able to explain what a BRRRR is, what that stands for. You shouldn't be the one- Just means you're cold, right? … interviewing. Yeah, totally. It means they're working in Alaska.

Joanna: [21:54] Right.

Christian: [21:55] Yeah. No, they should be the ones explaining that to you, not you explaining that to them. So if you're seeing that, maybe that's a sign you need to find another agent.

Joanna: [22:04] Yep. So we're gonna wrap it up with kind of one final thought is-

Christian: [22:09] Mm-hmm

Joanna: [22:10] choose your agent with intention. Yes. At the end of the day, this comes down to being intentional, right? Don't just go with your cousin's friend's roommate. Just because your parents' agent used to do a lot of business 20 years ago doesn't mean that they understand the current market in the areas that you're wanting to buy or sell in. Interview agents like you're hiring them, because you are.

Christian: [22:33] Yeah, you are. A great agent will help you feel informed, empowered, supported. They won't make you feel pressured. That's, if, if you're not finding that vibe, or maybe you are feeling that pressure vibe, maybe you should move on, because that's m- possibly not the right agent for you. Also, we touched on this a little bit before, but I wanna go in a little bit more depth. As a traditional buyer, so you're looking at buying a house or a condo or whatever-

Joanna: [23:00] For your home, not

Christian: [23:01] for an investment … for your home- Yeah … primary residence, as of January 2024, you will have to sign, in the state of Washington, a buyer brokerage services agreement. This is also known as, like, a buyer agent contract. Mm-hmm. You're gonna have to sign it with s- whatever agent you choose to work with.

Joanna: [23:20] Every single one.

Christian: [23:21] Every single one. This will state that you are working one-on-one with them for a specific period of time. Now, when you're an investor, we t- tou- touched on this earlier, this isn't as big a deal. As an investor, you're gonna buy from any and everyone. So if your agent, if you're an investor, is forcing you to sign an exclusive to work with them- Yeah … that is a red flag. You probably don't wanna work with them. So-

Joanna: [23:46] That really h- like, just keeps you in a box. Mm-hmm. And as an investor, that's not great.

Christian: [23:51] But the reason why is because as an investor, you're not going out every evening and weekend for months on end like a traditional buyer.

Joanna: [23:59] Right.

Christian: [24:00] And so that traditional buyer does usually sign an exclusive because, like for us, we do sign exclusive- Mm-hmm … with our traditional buyer agents, or buyer clients, because we are spending a ton of our time. Mm-hmm. And if you end up buying with someone else, and we've worked with you for six months, and you came to our beers and home buying class, and you got free food and beer, and- Did your

Joanna: [24:24] strategy

Christian: [24:24] session, and- Did your strategy session, we shared all of our resources with you, all of our time, and then you turn around and buy with someone else, we get nothing out of that. In fact, we lose a lot. Yeah. And so that is why we have you sign that BBSA, buyer brokerage services agreement, with us exclusively as a buyer.

Joanna: [24:42] Yes.

Christian: [24:42] And basically every other agent's gonna do the same thing. Yeah. They're gonna ask the same of you.

Joanna: [24:46] Yeah. It shows your commitment to the process, shows that you're serious. You know, this is, this is a career choice.

Christian: [24:54] Yes,

Joanna: [24:55] exactly. It's not for funsies.

Christian: [24:56] No, although we have a

Joanna: [24:57] lot of fun. It is fun. Yeah. I'm like, I do have a great time. Yeah. That's not the point.

Christian: [25:00] Yeah.

Joanna: [25:00] Um.

Christian: [25:01] But this isn't our hobby, on the side.

Joanna: [25:02] No, exactly.

Christian: [25:03] Yeah. Yeah. All right. So if you need help finding an agent or wanna ask these questions to us, we are here. We are happy to answer these questions- Yes … for you.

Joanna: [25:12] Um- We love to navigate the process, and we just like to do it in a very particular way. We have our strategy, and just as a reminder, we're agents, and work with buyers and sellers and investors.

Christian: [25:24] Mm-hmm. Yep, exactly. So that's it for this episode. I hope you learned a lot. I hope you understand what questions you need to be asking based on your specific situation, and I, I hope you are able and feel much more confident picking an agent- Yeah … and understanding that you do have a choice. You don't have to go with whoever you used last time you bought or sold, or- Yeah whoever you met at an open house, or that person that you clicked see the house in 30 minutes, and then you show up, and now you have to work with them for a year. Like, that doesn't necessarily mean that's the best choice for you. So be informed, make a good decision, um-

Joanna: [26:04] Exactly.

Christian: [26:05] And that is it for this episode- Yeah of the Awesome in Seattle podcast. Thanks so much for listening. We'll see you on the next one.

Joanna: [26:10] Bye.

Christian: [26:11] Bye.