Interview with Node co-founder Don Bunnell

Speaker 1: [0:09] Hello, hello, and welcome to the Awesome in Seattle podcast. This is Christian Nossum with the Awesome Nossum Group, and today I have not only one special guest, but two. We always have the special guest Jason Saldarriaga on here.

Speaker 2: [0:21] Yes, you do. Hello.

Speaker 1: [0:23] And today, in addition to Jason, we have an awesome person. Don Bunnell, co-founder of Node, and Node is basically a co- well, I'll let you describe. What is Node?

Speaker 3: [0:35] Node is, I mean, we're, you know, fundamentally a housing company, right? Yeah. And we deliver homes for folks. Mm-hmm. Um, but we do that by solving, like, a couple really fundamental problems, right? And the first is a consumer problem. So if you wanna build a new home, it's super complicated. Mm-hmm. For a lot of people, it's c- feels overwhelming, right? Um, and probably the biggest problem from a comp- consumer perspective, it's super risky.

Speaker 1: [1:03] Yeah.

Speaker 3: [1:03] So- Well,

Speaker 1: [1:03] there's so many unknowns.

Speaker 3: [1:05] Absolutely, right? And you have to make hundreds if not thousands of decisions around- Mm-hmm tile and- Mm-hmm … backsplashes- Grout color and- … grout color- Yeah … all kinds of things most people don't wanna do, right? Yeah. But really, the biggest problem for a consumer is that you've, if you build with a general contractor, it's almost guaranteed to be over budget-

Speaker 1: [1:23] Mm-hmm … Speaker 3: and behind schedule. Yep. Right? Um- Everyone's heard horror stories of that.

Speaker 3: [1:28] So that's kind of the first problem that we're trying to address, and the second problem we're trying to address is just the inefficiency of building.

Speaker 1: [1:34] Mm-hmm.

Speaker 3: [1:35] So we still build the way we did 100 years ago.

Speaker 1: [1:37] Mm-hmm.

Speaker 3: [1:37] Literally with a hammer and nails. It hasn't changed, right? Yeah. And we think about the way technology has impacted everything else in our lives. It hasn't come to home building yet.

Speaker 1: [1:45] That's true.

Speaker 3: [1:46] And it's one of the things that we're trying to change by making the whole process a lot more efficient. So what we do for consumers is, um, we make the process really easy-

Speaker 1: [1:55] Mm-hmm … Speaker 3: by giving them a turnkey experience. Mm-hmm. We do the permitting. We do the design. We build the home for them, and really, all you gotta do is bring the furniture, and it's ready to go. Nice.

Speaker 3: [2:06] The most important thing we do for consumers is we give them a guaranteed price.

Speaker 1: [2:10] That's insane, though, because no construction company does that.

Speaker 3: [2:14] Right.

Speaker 1: [2:14] Not, not that I've ever heard of, at least. Right. That's just unheard of, and that's pretty amazing because that's where all these decisions end up costing you way more money in the end- Yep … because you change things here and there, and it- Right … always adds up.

Speaker 3: [2:28] And often you don't even change anything. Yeah, exactly. But the price still changes. Yeah. It's like, "Sorry, the subcontractor charged more than I expected." Exactly. And they pass the price on to you.

Speaker 2: [2:36] Well, and I think it's a barrier that prevents a lot of people from even moving forward with entertaining the idea of building anything. Right. So. It's true.

Speaker 3: [2:43] Right, exactly. Back to my point, it just feels overwhelming for people- Yeah … right? Understandably so.

Speaker 2: [2:46] Yep.

Speaker 3: [2:47] Um, so that's, you know, that's kind of the, the fundamental pro- the, one of the fundamental problems we're trying to solve. But by giving people a guaranteed price, and if you step back and think about it for a second, what else do you buy that you don't know the price of, right?

Speaker 1: [2:59] Mm-hmm.

Speaker 3: [3:00] Everything else has a fixed price- Yeah and it should, right? Yeah, yep. And the home shouldn't be any different. Yeah. So, you know, that's kind of making it super simple and giving folks the guaranteed price. Um-

Speaker 1: [3:08] So what do you guys focus on building? Like a- 3,500, 4,000 square foot house? Do you do… What do you do?

Speaker 3: [3:15] Yeah, so we're developing a system for building, and I can get into a little bit more detail on that later. Um, but what we're focused on today is backyard cottages- Mm-hmm … and small vacation homes. We're only open for business in Western Washington today.

Speaker 1: [3:28] Nice.

Speaker 3: [3:28] Um, we'll c- we'll eventually expand to other parts of the country, but right now we're really just focused on Seattle and kind of the areas around Seattle.

Speaker 1: [3:35] Okay.

Speaker 3: [3:35] Um, so it's backyard cottages, small vacation homes, um, and eventually we'll grow that to single family homes. Mm-hmm. Um, and, you know, later multi-family. But right now we're, we're super focused on some of the smaller buildings.

Speaker 1: [3:48] Cool. And that's where, and that's why we brought you on today, was mostly because, you know, with all the new regulations in Seattle, talking about ADUs and DADUs, you know, detached accessory dwelling units, basically a backyard cottage, which they've gotta come up with a better acronym than DADU. I mean-

Speaker 3: [4:08] Granny flat, backyard cottage … Speaker: I don't know. Yeah. Something. Yeah. Like- And we're, people are always talk, talking past each other, 'cause they're like- Right … "What are we talking about here?" Yeah. Is a backyard cottage? Is it a DADU? It's all kind of the same thing.

Speaker 1: [4:18] DADU? Um, so if, if you, listener, are curious about what the new regulations are in Seattle that we're gonna be referring to, just listen back to our DADU Issues episode, which is hilarious. Um, we love that, that name. Yes, we

Speaker 2: [4:35] do.

Speaker 1: [4:36] Um, but in that, in that episode, we basically cover all the rules and regulations. We'll go over a little bit more, uh, later on today. But, um, if you really want the whole, whole spiel of what's going on, just listen to that past episode. Um, so the reason that we wanted to bring you on was because of the DADU issue. Um, and that's, it's really so confusing. We're in the infancy of these new rule changes. Um, and we really wanted to, I wanted to give our clients and our listeners really an idea of what they could expect and how they could add a dadu to a property, and what to expect cost-wise, and really the whole thing. Um, and that's really why I wanted to bring you on today. So, uh, thank you, Donald- Mm-hmm … for, for coming on and sharing all your expertise. We actually, uh… Was it couple weeks ago, we, we did a American Dream TV episode- Yep … where we get to actually showcase one of your, your units. Um, so if you're interested, just go to our website, awesomeinawesom.com, and click on the American Dream link. You'll, you can watch all those past episodes, and you can see what we're talking about. Um, but they're, they're cottages, backyard cottages, dadus, whatever you wanna call them. They are pretty amazing. They're, they're gorgeous. They're more modern. Um, but they just, they just make sense. Uh, and I, and I love the fact that you guys are sustainable as well. Um, tell me kind of about why you chose to go the sustainable route versus just cheap and throw it up there as quick as possible.

Speaker 3: [6:12] Yeah, I mean, I, I, I got into this business and, and started this company with my co-founder, Beck Chapin, um, because I had this personal problem. I moved to Seattle about five years ago, built a new home.

Speaker 1: [6:23] Mm-hmm.

Speaker 3: [6:23] Took a lot longer and cost so much more than it was supposed to. Mm-hmm. And everyone told me that was normal.

Speaker 1: [6:28] Yeah.

Speaker 3: [6:29] Um, so I wanted to work on this problem 'cause I just had such an acute pain around it. Yep. Right? Um, but I come from a sustainability background. I was kind of in the clean energy business before I got into- Nice got into Node. Um, so I was, I was like, I wanted to work on this problem, but I had to have a sustainability angle. Mm-hmm. And the more I dug in, the more I started to understand how buildings impact the environment.

Speaker 1: [6:50] Mm-hmm.

Speaker 3: [6:50] 40% of carbon emissions come from buildings.

Speaker 1: [6:52] Wow.

Speaker 3: [6:53] Homes are about half of that. Wow. And we've got all the technology to make a building zero emissions. Um, but generally people don't employ that technology. So we are a mission, we're a mission-driven company.

Speaker 1: [7:05] Nice.

Speaker 3: [7:06] Um, and what we're about is getting sustainable buildings to people that are well-designed, really well-built, have no toxic materials inside them-

Speaker 1: [7:15] That's huge … Speaker 3: good for the environment, and we do all of that at a really reasonable price. Mm-hmm.

Speaker 3: [7:20] So I think that's where it's, what's really different for, fr- from us. And kinda going back to one of the things is like, how do you do all those things, right? Yeah. How do you get sustainability, non-toxic materials, good design to people at a good price? Yeah. And you have to change the system, and that's what we're working on doing. So, you know, building, as I said earlier, is really arcane.

Speaker 1: [7:38] Mm-hmm.

Speaker 3: [7:38] We build with hammer and nails still, right? Yeah. So what we've done is we've taken a lot of that process out of the field, moved it into a factory under a controlled environment- Mm-hmm … where we can do quality assurance, quality control, and basically build components in the factory, bring them out to site, and then assemble them on site.

Speaker 1: [7:56] That's awesome.

Speaker 3: [7:57] And when you move to that kind of factory production method, you can get economies of scale- Mm-hmm … and then you can start to deliver essentially a better product at a lower price.

Speaker 1: [8:04] Yeah. No, that

Speaker 3: [8:04] makes total sense. That's, that's fundamentally what we're trying to do.

Speaker 1: [8:06] Makes complete sense, and that's, it's interesting that that hasn't been employed at a, on a larger scale- Yeah in the US. I know some companies do things like that here and there, but it's not At scale yet-

Speaker 3: [8:20] Right … Speaker: as far as I know. Yeah, and this is the future of home building. Yeah. It's coming. Yeah. Um, and there's a handful of companies working on it, and we're one of them.

Speaker 1: [8:27] Yeah. That's awesome.

Speaker 2: [8:28] It's funny how, like, 100 years ago, the Sears boxcar houses that, you know- Mm-hmm you'd admit they'd ship you in a tr- in a train- Right … the entire house with a, basically like IKEA. Yeah. Yeah. And we've lost that, gone into more of this, like a, you know- Custom approach … custom, like, it's built on site. Yeah. And we're coming back to, to this modular approach. It's, it's- Right … just a funny-

Speaker 3: [8:49] Yeah

Speaker 2: [8:49] Mm-hmm fact of life, I guess.

Speaker 3: [8:51] Yeah, and I, and I think the old system worked for a long time, where we used subcontractors to do the framing, the electrical, the plumbing, all these different specialty trades. Mm-hmm. And that worked for a long time. It was a low-cost, not the most efficient, but it was a low-cost way to get buildings to folks. Um, and the biggest change that we've seen in the last 10 years is those kind of specialty trades have gone away. So we have a million fewer construction workers today than we did 10 years ago.

Speaker 1: [9:13] Wow.

Speaker 3: [9:13] Why does it take 18, 18 months to build a single family home in Seattle?

Speaker 1: [9:16] Yeah. ' Speaker 3: Cause there's just not enough specialty trades. Oh, wow.

Speaker 3: [9:18] And that's why we're moving all this stuff into a factory a- and to a different production method so we don't have to use those specialty trades. And

Speaker 1: [9:24] when you say factory, you're not saying, like, shipping it off to China. You're talking, you have a factory here.

Speaker 3: [9:29] That's c- that's right. Yeah. It's, it's down in Soto. We use, um, almost all northw- wood from the northwest. Nice. So we use local materials and, yeah- Cool … and the homes are built here.

Speaker 2: [9:38] Good. And then the components that you make, so you, you pre-produce certain components. What, what are we talking about here? Are they, like, half of the si- the framing of the house? What, what are the sizes of these components that you then bring to the site to cons- to assemble?

Speaker 3: [9:55] Yeah. So, so it's wall panels. Typically everything can be b- can be carried by, by two people. Um, so that's one of the big things when you're thinking about building a, a backyard cottage, site access is super important.

Speaker 2: [10:05] Mm-hmm.

Speaker 3: [10:06] Um, you don't wanna be craning a building over another building, right? Yeah. Um, the-

Speaker 2: [10:11] Which is

Speaker 3: [10:11] scary. Most people don't feel that comfortable with, of this massive thing going- … over the top of the house. So we've designed everything so it c- it, it can be carried pretty easily by two people. Um, there are some heavier things, and we have some methods for getting those o- onto the site as well, but we think really hard about site access. So the kind of things we're building in our facility are the wall panels and things like that, but then we use our, our hardware so they go together really quickly and easily on site.

Speaker 1: [10:33] How many of these are you guys expecting to be able to build once you ramp up production a year?

Speaker 3: [10:39] Yeah. So we're, uh, targeting 25 next year.

Speaker 1: [10:42] Nice.

Speaker 3: [10:42] And we'll double or triple or even quadruple that next year. Cool. We're moving, um, into a new production facility- Uh, also in SoDo, but- Right … a little farther south. Mm-hmm. Um, so we're ramping up to, um, to really kind of start getting to these at scale. I mean, kinda the long-term mission of the company is really to get, you know, again, really well-designed, really sustainable buildings to people at scale is what we're ultimately trying to do.

Speaker 1: [11:06] Perfect. You and I have been talking a lot because I'm actually looking at getting one in a duplex that I own in Wallingford.

Speaker 3: [11:13] Yep.

Speaker 1: [11:14] I understand the process, but let's pretend I don't, and let's walk me through how this process would work. If I want- if I'm raising my hand and I say, "Don, I want a Node DADU in my backyard"-

Speaker 3: [11:26] Yep

Speaker 1: [11:26] what do I do now?

Speaker 3: [11:27] Well, I would say come to our website first.

Speaker 1: [11:29] Okay.

Speaker 3: [11:29] And that's node.eco. Mm-hmm. N-O-D-E.E-C-O. Mm-hmm. And you can sign up online, and we'll c- we'll contact you almost immediately after you sign up. Um, so one of our salespeople, sometimes myself, will give you a call. Uh, and the first thing we do is, like, give us your address. We can plug that into a partner site that we work with. It's a site called Much Ado.

Speaker 1: [11:50] Okay.

Speaker 3: [11:50] Um, and just from doing that search using that software, we can tell you with 95% f- 95% certainty right then and there whether or not you qualify for a

Speaker 1: [12:01] DADU. Nice.

Speaker 3: [12:02] Right? Um, and you alluded this- to this before, but Seattle changed the regulations in July- Mm-hmm making it much easier to build a DADU.

Speaker 1: [12:09] Yep.

Speaker 3: [12:09] So you can build up to 1,000 square feet now. Mm-hmm. There's no owner occupancy requirement anymore. The minimum lot size is 3,200. Yeah. So a lot more lots have been opened up to

Speaker 1: [12:19] it, right? Yeah, exactly. So- 'Cause it used to be 4,000 square feet minimum.

Speaker 3: [12:22] Yeah. And those- It was even actually a little bit larger than that was it

Speaker 1: [12:24] 5,000- Yeah … or 4,500 or something like that.

Speaker 3: [12:25] Yeah, 5,000,

Speaker 1: [12:26] exactly. Yeah. Yep. So 3,200, that's… There's not a lot of lots in Seattle that have a single family home that are 3,200 square feet. Yeah. There are some, but they're very few and far between, so they essentially open it up to almost every single family lot.

Speaker 3: [12:40] I think I've yet to run into a client who doesn't have a big enough lot. Yeah. Not saying they're not out there, but no one's reached

Speaker 1: [12:45] out to us. They are. Yeah, they are, but they're very few and far between.

Speaker 3: [12:49] Yep. Yep.

Speaker 2: [12:50] Yeah. Well, the lots are so small, they know for a fact they- Right. There's nowhere to put one. I'm definitely not gonna be putting a Dadu

Speaker 1: [12:57] on this. On this 2,000 square foot lot.

Speaker 2: [12:59] Yeah.

Speaker 1: [12:59] My

Speaker 3: [12:59] home takes up- We get some pretty crazy questions sometimes. I'm sure you do, yeah. You'd be surprised. Maybe you wouldn't be surprised. Yeah,

Speaker 1: [13:04] not really, no.

Speaker 3: [13:06] Um, so that- All right. So- So that's step one, right? Step one, you figure out if it works. You go, well, step one is really you come to our website, get signed up. Um, we'll do just a real high-level feasibility for you- Mm-hmm … using the software. Um, and assuming that, that pans out, then the next step is we, we'll come out and do a site visit. Cool. So you tell us what size building do you want. We've got pre-designed floor plans for a 400, 600, 800 and 1,000 square foot backyard cottage, right? Mm-hmm. So tell us you want an 800 square foot, we'll come out, we'll look at your lot and just make sure there's nothing that's not coming up in our software search-

Speaker 1: [13:38] Mm-hmm … Speaker 3: right, to make sure your site looks like it's buildable, right? Yeah. And sometimes, um, and in almost all the site visits I've ever done, it, it's all pretty feasible. Sometimes you'll have folks on a steep lot, and we'll have to talk about, well, there's probably some additional site work- Mm-hmm … Speaker 3: around building on a steep lot and things like that. Yeah. But assuming a relatively flat lot, then, um, we could probably go forward. Uh, the next thing then would be, um, signing a deposit agreement with us- Mm-hmm to get you into the queue so you, we can reserve your building spot for you. Okay.

Speaker 3: [14:07] And then the next step is a contract. We do the permitting. Uh, right now in Seattle, it's about three months to permit a backyard cottage. Mm. Um, the city's coming out with some new rules that we, we think is gonna speed that up- Good but it's a little premature to talk about that. Yeah. Um, so right now- I

Speaker 1: [14:22] know, I know when they passed the legislation, Mayor Durkan wanted to get the process or the permitting process to- Yeah … 30 days or less.

Speaker 3: [14:28] Right.

Speaker 1: [14:29] We'll see if that happens.

Speaker 3: [14:30] And I think that's in the works, but I don't know enough- Yeah … to kind of tell you where they are right now.

Speaker 1: [14:33] Yeah.

Speaker 3: [14:34] Um-

Speaker 1: [14:34] Well, even if we did know, it's not like it would get necessarily passed, so. Right.

Speaker 3: [14:37] Right. Um, so, you know, from contract, um, t- to permitting is about three months, and then we're on site for about two months, right? So- Mm-hmm … as opposed to anywhere from kind of 8, 12, 18 months- Yeah … with a general contractor. From, yeah. Um, and that's because we go back to this efficient process for building, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Um, so we're on site for about two months, and then, um, we hand over the building ready to move into. Re- literally all you have to do is bring the furniture. So we do the utility hookups for you. We really take care of everything except for the furniture.

Speaker 1: [15:08] And that's a big deal. Uh, and I don't know if people realize that it's huge to try and get all the utilities, the foundation, all those things that you don't necessarily think of.

Speaker 3: [15:20] Yep.

Speaker 1: [15:20] Those are kind of pain points for most people- Yeah … when they're in that process.

Speaker 3: [15:24] Right. And understandably, most people don't know where to- No what to do,

Speaker 1: [15:27] right? No. And why would they?

Speaker 3: [15:28] Right.

Speaker 1: [15:28] They have their real job. Yeah. That's, this is not their real job.

Speaker 3: [15:31] Yeah.

Speaker 1: [15:32] And it's, yeah, so the fact that you guys literally handle everything- the buyer or the owner of this DADU just shows up and says, "Hey, let's do this," and in five, six months, it's- Right … done.

Speaker 3: [15:45] Yep. And, you know, and, and a building project's really only gonna work if there's one party who's in charge of everything.

Speaker 1: [15:51] Mm-hmm.

Speaker 3: [15:51] If you start to mix the homeowner in with the general contractor, then maybe another contractor, everyone starts pointing fingers at each other. Yeah. Nobody's happy at the end of the day.

Speaker 1: [16:00] Mm-hmm.

Speaker 3: [16:01] So you have to have one company who's in charge of the whole thing, otherwise it just doesn't work and everyone, and everyone ends, ends up mad.

Speaker 1: [16:07] Yeah. So let's go a little personal on mine. Sure. So I, I have a permitted duplex-

Speaker 3: [16:14] Yep … Speaker: in Wallingford. Had fun with that one.

Speaker 1: [16:16] Yeah. And that one kinda fell through the cracks. Do you wanna kinda go through that story and, and how… 'Cause it was like, yeah, I should be able to get a DADU no problem. Yeah. It's a 4,000 square foot lot or whatever, 4,200 square foot, I don't know what it is, but-

Speaker 3: [16:29] Yeah … Speaker: like, this should not be an issue. Should not be an issue, right?

Speaker 1: [16:32] Yeah. Yeah. And then-

Speaker 3: [16:34] We should, we can do a separate podcast on- the inefficient, i- inefficiencies of legislation.

Speaker 1: [16:39] Yes.

Speaker 3: [16:39] Right? Yeah. And, and I, and I, and I think the, you know, I think the city council and the mayor, um, were acting with the best of intentions, but sometimes when you write the laws- Mm-hmm … you kind of forget about little things here and there. Yeah. And I think duplex, duplexes kind of fell into that, so I went and talked to the city about this, and they're like, "Well, technically a duplex is not a single family home- Mm-hmm and ADUs and DADUs are for single family homes, right?"

Speaker 2: [17:02] Yeah.

Speaker 3: [17:02] So basically they said no. And I was like, "Hold on."

Speaker 2: [17:06] Yeah, wait a

Speaker 3: [17:07] second. This doesn't make sense, right? Because back in… So your, that home was converted to a duplex in 1960.

Speaker 2: [17:12] Yeah.

Speaker 3: [17:12] 1960, ADUs and DADUs were illegal.

Speaker 2: [17:16] Yeah.

Speaker 3: [17:16] You couldn't, didn't even have that option, right? Yeah, yeah. So it's essentially a single family home with a floor that's been turned into an accessory dwelling unit. Mm-hmm. We should probably just stop for a second and talk about the difference between an ADU and a DADU.

Speaker 1: [17:29] Yeah.

Speaker 3: [17:30] So under the new rules, you're allowed to now have a ADU and a DADU on your property.

Speaker 1: [17:35] In addition to the home or

Speaker 3: [17:37] whatever- In addition to the single family home. Yeah. So the ADU is something that's inside the single family home. The best example is you turn a basement into- Another unit … kind of a dwelling unit, right? Yeah. So with a kitchen and a bathroom and a- Mm-hmm … separate entry, right? So that becomes an accessory dwelling unit. Mm-hmm. So you're allowed to have one of those, plus a DADU, right? Yep. So that's a backyard cottage.

Speaker 1: [17:55] Yep.

Speaker 3: [17:55] Um, so what I said to them is, like, "If we permitted this today, this would just be a single family home with an ADU, and then we could do a DADU." And they're like, "Yeah, that's right." I was like, "Okay, so what do we do next?" And basically, um, after talking to quite a few people, we, we came back around and we said, "Oh, all you gotta do is ask for a change in use." So a- when we go for the building permit, there's a box you can check and w- we'll change, we'll, we'll change the use to an ADU and a DADU.

Speaker 1: [18:21] Instead of a duplex- Yeah … we go back to a single family home. Yeah. So

Speaker 3: [18:24] we got there.

Speaker 1: [18:25] We got there- We- … after a lot of- A lot of runaround that you went through, thankfully. Yeah. And this is the beautiful thing, like, I just said, "Don, I- I'm really considering doing this. Can you help me out?" And he said, "Yeah." And I don't know how many hours you spent on my specific project. I don't have anything signed with you. I haven't paid any money. You're just going through the pr- the steps to try to figure this out for me, and thank you, because that was a lot- No, you're welcome … of effort that you put in. No, you're welcome. Um, but that's the, it just kind of goes to show the kind of company that Note is. They're gonna do what it takes. They're… I don't know. I was very impressed. I appreciate that. That's, that's a big reason why I wanted to bring you on. Thanks for having me. Um, so yeah. Thank you. So, let's talk about, more about Dadu's and what are people, for the most part, w- what are, what is kind of their anticipated use? What are they using it for? Is it all landlords? Is it all… Like, what is it? People that are gonna live in it themselves and rent out the front house? Like, what's, what's, what are you seeing?

Speaker 3: [19:26] Yeah. I mean, uh, just to break it down really generally, uh, I would say roughly about 60% of our clients are interested in doing this for passive income. Yeah. So it's an investment for them- Yeah … right? And it, it, I mean, you guys are both real estate agents. Mm-hmm. Uh, it's the only real estate class I can think of where the land is free.

Speaker 1: [19:44] Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 3: [19:44] You own the home. Yep. You've got this backyard.

Speaker 1: [19:47] Mm-hmm. And

Speaker 3: [19:47] now you can monetize it, right?

Speaker 1: [19:48] Yeah.

Speaker 3: [19:49] Um, so-

Speaker 1: [19:51] Which I think the city, this is the whole reason why they changed the legislation.

Speaker 3: [19:55] Yeah.

Speaker 1: [19:56] We have all these backyards that are underutilized that could be-

Speaker 3: [20:00] Correct … Speaker: more dense. Yep.

Speaker 1: [20:02] And that's the whole purpose. Right. And you are filling a gap- Mm-hmm … that is definitely out there.

Speaker 3: [20:07] Yep.

Speaker 1: [20:08] Because when I heard about these legislation, or the legislation coming down the pipe, I was like, "Well, what companies are solving this problem?"

Speaker 3: [20:15] Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1: [20:16] And you were one of the only that I found. Um, and it's, it's just interesting that- I don't know. I'm, I'm excited. I'm excited. I think this is, it's actually coming to fruition what the city wanted with these new reg- legislation.

Speaker 2: [20:30] Right.

Speaker 1: [20:30] Um, they want to fill in more without having crazy amounts of new construction- Right or tearing down the single family homes that are already there that are beautiful- Right … often.

Speaker 3: [20:41] Right.

Speaker 1: [20:42] Uh, that have the character of the city. You know, they don't, they don't wanna ruin all that. Yeah. And I think they're doing a good job.

Speaker 3: [20:47] Totally agree. I, I think it's a win-win for homeowners. Yeah. Um, you, you preserve the character of the neighborhood. Mm-hmm. You still have single family homes, but you add density at the same time. Yep. So, you know, I think it's great. So about 60% are doing it for investment income, and I would split that. Of that 60%, maybe half are looking at longterm rental- Mm-hmm … and then the other half are looking at Airbnb short-term type rentals. Mm-hmm. Um, so that's 60% of the customer base. About 20%, um, are for age in place. Yeah. So it's either older people who wanna move into their backyard-

Speaker 1: [21:18] Mm-hmm … Speaker 3: um, and age in place, kind of in the same neighborhood they've- Yeah … been living in for 20, 30, 50 years, right? Yep. Um, in some cases, children building a backyard cottage for their parents so they're nearby as they age. Yeah.

Speaker 3: [21:30] So that's another big use case. Free babysitting. Free babysitting. There you go. Didn't think about that. Uh, and then probably the most sup- surprising use case for me has been people who wanna build backyard cottages and move into the cottages- Mm-hmm … 'cause they wanna be kind of in a m- better designed-

Speaker 1: [21:49] Yeah

Speaker 3: [21:49] newer, cleaner home, right? Yeah. They move into the backyard cottages and then they, well, they're gonna, uh, probably fix up the front a little bit, and then, uh, rent that out-

Speaker 1: [21:57] Yeah … Speaker 3: either longterm or short-term rental. Which I talked to my wife about, moving into a 1,000 square foot, three bed.

Speaker 3: [22:03] How'd that go?

Speaker 1: [22:04] And she, she said- With three kids "Yeah, there, we might have, uh, murder charges on our record after that." I was like, "Yeah, good point." Mm. I don't think we could swing that. It would

Speaker 3: [22:14] be a bit tight.

Speaker 1: [22:14] That would be a bit tight, yeah. But I had to throw it out there. Right.

Speaker 3: [22:18] Good for trying.

Speaker 1: [22:19] Yeah, exactly. Um, I, in fact, on Sunday we had a home buyer class, and after the class one of the people were talking about potentially doing something with a small home- Mm or building.

Speaker 3: [22:34] Yep.

Speaker 1: [22:34] And I suggested buy a regular single family home in a neighborhood you wanna be in. Yep. Because, one, there's not a lot of land available. Yep. And, two, the land that is available, pretty much all steep slope stuff-

Speaker 3: [22:45] Yep … Speaker: which is very difficult to build on. Yeah, there's basically no vacant land left.

Speaker 1: [22:49] There's no vacant land left. Yeah. Unless you're gonna tear something down and start from scratch- Yep … there's really no vacant land.

Speaker 3: [22:55] Yep.

Speaker 1: [22:55] So I was talking to him about this, and I suggested, 'cause he's cool, he's just a single guy, he's younger.

Speaker 3: [23:02] Yep.

Speaker 1: [23:03] I suggested just put one of these DADUs in your backyard-

Speaker 3: [23:06] Yep

Speaker 1: [23:07] rent out the front house-

Speaker 3: [23:08] Yep … Speaker: decrease your monthly output for mortgage- Yep … because you got basically free land. You're gonna be paying potentially most of your mortgage with renting out the front house- Yep … and you can live for almost nothing. Yep.

Speaker 1: [23:23] And he was like, "I just feel like I'd be handicapped with that big giant mortgage payment." I'm like, "Well, remember, you're gonna rent out the front."

Speaker 3: [23:30] Yep.

Speaker 1: [23:30] It's not that big of a, of a deal.

Speaker 3: [23:33] Right.

Speaker 1: [23:33] And he's like, "Oh, yeah." So we'll see what happens with

Speaker 3: [23:36] that.

Speaker 1: [23:36] Yeah. But this is the perfect use case. No,

Speaker 3: [23:37] I think it's this new, kind of emerging- Yeah … kind of real estate class I think is really interesting.

Speaker 1: [23:42] Yeah, which, I mean, it's- There's lots of different ways

Speaker 3: [23:43] you can play it … Speaker: I'm all about. I mean, there's a big financial independence movement going on. Yep. Um, people trying to reduce or minimize their, their f- every payment that they have every single month. Right.

Speaker 1: [23:53] I think this is a great way to do that.

Speaker 3: [23:55] Yep. Yeah, and it's like, you know, it's our, our first client, that's exactly what she wanted. She had a, you know, big yard up in West Seattle- Mm-hmm … and she wanted to kind of secure a retirement income. Yeah. She was like, "What's the easiest way to do that?" Yep. Have a backyard cottage. She rents it out on Airbnb, does really well with it. Yep. Um, you know, and she's got this steady source of income now.

Speaker 1: [24:13] Yeah. I saw that. That's the one that I saw, right? Yep. That was cool, 'cause she also added a little extra stuff on there, a little potting studio and things like that. Yeah. I don't know if that's normal, but but she did stuff like that, which was cool. Yeah. She used to use, she used to use some of it herself.

Speaker 3: [24:28] Correct.

Speaker 1: [24:29] Um- How do you project, or what are you thinking, in five years, where do you see kinda these DADUs, um, changing Seattle? How do you see them changing Seattle? Is it gonna be some major impact? Is it just gonna be a little, you know, a, a drip in the pond? Is it gonna be… What are you seeing? I mean, it

Speaker 3: [24:49] has been a drip in the pond.

Speaker 1: [24:50] Yeah.

Speaker 3: [24:50] It has. And, and I think that's due largely to the restrictive regulations around it.

Speaker 1: [24:55] Mm-hmm.

Speaker 3: [24:56] Um, and probably the most instructive thing we could do is look to Vancouver. Vancouver, British Columbia- Yeah … not Vancouver, Washington. Yep. Um, and Vancouver, about 10 years ago, liberalized their backyard cottage regulations- Mm-hmm … and they're building about 500 a year now. Hmm. Um, which is easily 10x what Seattle's been doing- Yeah … over the last few years. So I think that's the direction we're headed in- Mm-hmm … is, is, is that kind of a volume. Yeah. Um, and, you know, as we said before, I think it's, I think it's a win-win. Great for- Mm … homeowners, great for density in the neighborhood- Mm-hmm … more walkable neighborhoods. Yep. Um, so yeah, I think it's, um, it's got… It makes a lot of sense, and I think it's really gonna catch on. We're seeing it up and down the West Coast.

Speaker 1: [25:39] Yeah.

Speaker 3: [25:40] Um, almost- 'Cause Portland changed

Speaker 1: [25:41] theirs

Speaker 3: [25:41] as well … Portland changed theirs. We see it in most major cities in California. In fact, California- Yeah … passed a state law.

Speaker 1: [25:47] Oh, wow.

Speaker 3: [25:47] Um, Washington was really close to passing a state law around it, too, and it lost by, um, just a few votes. Wow. It was really narrow, and I think it's gonna come b- come back up- Yeah at the state legislature. Um, and there's other cities in Washington doing the same thing. But it just makes sense. I mean, everyone's thinking- Yeah … about density these days. Yep. A lot of that has to do with climate change. Mm-hmm. Um, but, you know, I think demographics have changed, and people wanna be in the city again, right? Yeah. 20 years ago, people wanted to be in the suburbs- Mm-hmm … and I think that's what

Speaker 1: [26:14] changed a lot. You wanted the big, giant patch of grass that you had to water and mow.

Speaker 3: [26:16] Right.

Speaker 1: [26:18] Which I now- Now people don't want that. Yeah. I know that when the, when the DADU and ADU re- legislation was passed, the city had projections of how many they assumed would be built or projected- Mm-hmm to be built.

Speaker 3: [26:31] Yep.

Speaker 1: [26:31] And it's actually almost right in line with the numbers you were saying. Yep. They said, I think they bel- I believe they said over 10 years, they expect about 4,400-

Speaker 3: [26:39] Right … Speaker: DADUs to be added. Yep.

Speaker 1: [26:41] And if you take into comparison how many every year or how many single-family units are built every year- Mm-hmm it was, like, 8,800- Right … a year.

Speaker 3: [26:51] Yep.

Speaker 1: [26:52] And this is 4,400 over 10 years.

Speaker 3: [26:55] Right.

Speaker 1: [26:55] Like, that's nothing.

Speaker 3: [26:56] Yep.

Speaker 1: [26:57] So for the people that were scared that this is gonna change the city, that i- it's adding way too much density in all these neighborhoods-

Speaker 3: [27:05] Yep … Speaker: it's just not gonna happen. I totally agree. It's not some… Yeah, it's not some tidal wave. 'Cause there's absolutely nothing to be scared of . Speaker: No, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's funny how people thought that, that kinda thing was gonna happen. But, um, let's talk about energy and, and how much energy is used in, in your- Yeah … Speaker: node units. Yeah, so- Um, you know, we kind of said at the beginning, uh, one of our- we're a mission-driven company- Mm-hmm and sustainability is one of, kind of our core, uh, values. Yeah. Um, so how do we do that? Um, if you think about sustainability, kind of the lowest hanging fruit is the building envelope.

Speaker 1: [27:43] Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Speaker 3: [27:44] Um, and that means building a home with really good insulation, um, with high-quality windows, tri- uh, typically it's kind of triple pane.

Speaker 1: [27:53] Oh, nice.

Speaker 3: [27:53] But that only makes sense if you really seal the building up well.

Speaker 1: [27:56] Yeah.

Speaker 3: [27:56] Um, and so it's not leaking air 'cause- Yeah … good insulation and good windows- Doesn't matter if there's air leaking out of the building- Exactly … right? Yeah. That's, yeah. So we seal the buildings really tightly as well. Um, but when you seal a building tightly, the building still needs to breathe. So kind of standard, um, in all our designs is a, essentially a heat exchanger-

Speaker 1: [28:16] Mm-hmm … Speaker 3: that brings fresh air in, takes the stale air out. Um, so it lets the building breathe, but you don't lose the energy, you don't lo- lose the heat. Yeah.

Speaker 3: [28:25] Um, so when we think about all our designs are super well-insulated, super well-sealed, and then they come with these heat recovery ventilators as kind of standard.

Speaker 1: [28:35] That's awesome.

Speaker 3: [28:35] Um, and so, you know, we think about sustainability, conservation is the easiest thing to do. Mm-hmm. And then everything comes solar-ready. So we encourage people to put solar panels on their homes. Um, we can't force them to do that. Yeah. Obviously, that's an individual choice. But it is solar-ready.

Speaker 1: [28:50] Mm-hmm.

Speaker 3: [28:50] Um, so if they don't wanna do it when we build, then they can do it really easily later on.

Speaker 1: [28:54] After the fact.

Speaker 3: [28:54] And you know, what we've found is, um, that you can finance solar panels, and often the finance cost is about the same as paying the utility bill.

Speaker 1: [29:04] Wow.

Speaker 3: [29:04] Um, a little bit more, but not, not significantly more. Nice. So, you, you know, s- from an economics perspective, it makes a lot of sense.

Speaker 1: [29:10] Mm-hmm. So let's say that for the one that I'm potentially putting in in my duplex in, uh, Wallingford-

Speaker 3: [29:17] Yep … Speaker: let's say I wanna add solar. Do I do that myself? Do you guys handle that? How does that work? Yeah, so we, we have a partner company that we work with, so we would just handle that as part of the whole thing. So it's- Just like normal- … it all goes back to the turnkey experience … you handle everything. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: [29:32] That's awesome.

Speaker 3: [29:33] Yeah. Um- And we're totally transparent about that kind of stuff. We're not making money off of that.

Speaker 1: [29:36] Cool.

Speaker 3: [29:37] Yeah.

Speaker 1: [29:37] Yeah, that's the other thing. I should note that if anyone is curious about pricing, all their pricing is transparent on their website.

Speaker 3: [29:44] Correct.

Speaker 2: [29:44] It's pretty amazing.

Speaker 3: [29:46] Yeah.

Speaker 2: [29:46] And you mentioned that the solar, it's solar-ready.

Speaker 3: [29:49] Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2: [29:50] What does that mean? You actually see this on a lot of house, new houses th- these days. Yeah. What does that actually mean? Is it pre-wired? What, what, what is that to a buyer? No,

Speaker 3: [29:58] exactly. It's pre-wired. It's ready to go. We've got wires running up to the roof, so the solar installer just con- comes out and can hook up the, um, the solar panels and then hook them into the lines that are already up to the roof. We also use, um, a roofing style that, um, is really, there's basically for, um, for solar panels, there are some that just click right onto the roof. Oh, wow. So, but you have to have a special kind of roofing type to do that, so we use that, that kind of roofing.

Speaker 2: [30:23] Interesting.

Speaker 3: [30:24] Yeah.

Speaker 1: [30:24] Okay. That's awesome.

Speaker 3: [30:25] Yeah.

Speaker 1: [30:26] Um, let's talk about design choices and stuff like that. What are- Yeah … say I wanna customize whatever I'm putting in.

Speaker 3: [30:32] Yeah.

Speaker 1: [30:33] How much say do I have to have and how much say do I get to have? Yeah. Which are two very different points. Uh, yeah, tell me more about that.

Speaker 3: [30:42] The answer is yes. Oh, sorry, that wasn't a yes/no question- … was it? Um, yeah, if you want, like, super custom architecture, we're not the right solution. Yeah. Right? So if you want, like, these funky curved walls and this crazy roof line, that's, that's not us. Mm-hmm. Um, I mean, how do you get sustainability, high quality, good design to people at a reasonable cost? You don't redesign every time. Yeah. Um, so we've got the standard, like I said, 400, 600, 800, 1000 square foot units. Mm-hmm. Um, but you get to customize to a degree. Yeah. So you can pick… We've got a lot of different cladding options. You can make it look really cool and modern.

Speaker 1: [31:17] Mm-hmm.

Speaker 3: [31:17] If you want it to match your existing house, we can match the siding on your existing house- That's awesome … so it, so it kind of looks like your main house.

Speaker 1: [31:24] Yeah, so it's not like this, you know, you have a Craftsman and in the front the main house- Yeah and then you got this, which could be cool, but also it might be an eyesore-

Speaker 3: [31:33] Yeah … Speaker: big modern thing in the back. Yeah. And it's very dependent on your taste, right? Yeah, exactly. Everyone's different. So everyone will want different things. So you get to choose kind of how you want the cladding to look.

Speaker 1: [31:41] Cool.

Speaker 3: [31:41] Um, and then you- we've basically a curated interior design option. So we use an interior decorator. Hmm. And we give you options, and you can pick, like, a little bit more modern look. Mm-hmm. Do you like white? Do you like gray? Yeah. So you have different options there. Mm-hmm. Um, so you can kind of personalize the interior to your own personal taste. So you're saying- And if you don't like any of the things that we've already kind of curated-

Speaker 1: [32:01] Mm-hmm … Speaker 3: you can pick. We've got a range of countertops and tile and flooring- Got it … that you can pick from, and you can kind of do your own design if you want. So you kind of have a prearranged palette-

Speaker 3: [32:09] Yeah … Speaker: that we get to choose from. Yeah. We don't have to go pick out the exact grout color- Yeah … out of the thousand choices. So, but it's curated- Yeah … and that's the difference, right? Yeah. You don't have a thousand choices. You have a handful of choices, right? That's, that's the way to go. And, and that's what, I mean, what I, what I've found is that's what people want. Yep, they do. They don't, they don't want, they don't want to go through a thousand tiles.

Speaker 1: [32:26] Yeah. You don't want them… You want to know that whatever of, out of the handful of choices you make one of the choices, it's not gonna look horrible.

Speaker 3: [32:33] Exactly.

Speaker 1: [32:34] And that's, yeah. And that's all people ever really want.

Speaker 3: [32:36] Yeah.

Speaker 1: [32:38] Cool. All right. Um, I guess last question. Give people a better idea of pricing. I know it's all on the website, and I know maybe one day it'll all change. Yeah. But, um, as of now, it's what, October 2019.

Speaker 3: [32:52] Yep.

Speaker 1: [32:53] General pricing.

Speaker 3: [32:54] Yeah. So there's inverse, there's an inverse relationship between the size of the building- Mm-hmm and cost per square foot.

Speaker 1: [33:00] Yep.

Speaker 3: [33:00] Um, but we've got, you know, kind of our standard models out there, so starting at 150K.

Speaker 1: [33:05] Mm-hmm.

Speaker 3: [33:06] So that's for the whole building ready to move into- Mm-hmm … including the foundation. Um- And on, all the way up to about a little over 300K for 1,000 square foot, kind of three-bedroom unit, and everything in between. So- Nice … that's the pricing. Uh, you know, and people look at backyard cottages, and the thing y- the key to remember with backyard cottages is, um, as you get smaller in footprint, cost per square foot goes up.

Speaker 1: [33:31] Yep. ' Speaker 3: Cause you still need a kitchen- Yeah … regardless of whether it's a 4,000 square foot home or a 400 square foot home. Yep.

Speaker 3: [33:36] Right? You still need at least one bathroom. Yep. We usually have one and a half or two. Um, you still need a whole HVAC system, right? Mm-hmm. You still need a foundation. Um, so, um, you know, it's, on a square footage basis, it's always more expensive to build a backyard cottage. Yeah. But it doesn't have to be super expensive.

Speaker 1: [33:54] Yeah, and I believe, um, with some more projections that the city had when this, those origilate- or regulations came out, they were projecting, you know, on average 250 to 350,000 for- Mm-hmm … a backyard cottage.

Speaker 3: [34:08] Right.

Speaker 1: [34:08] And your-

Speaker 3: [34:08] Right, and I think that's for a 600 square foot.

Speaker 1: [34:11] Wow.

Speaker 3: [34:11] Right? Um, so I think that, those, and I've seen those numbers as well.

Speaker 1: [34:14] Yeah.

Speaker 3: [34:15] There's non- a couple nonprofits around that have d- done that kind of a math, right? Mm-hmm. And our, our 600 square foot unit's 200K.

Speaker 1: [34:20] Yeah, that's

Speaker 3: [34:21] great. Um, and I, and I think a contractor would tell you 250, 300, 350K.

Speaker 1: [34:26] Yep. But- And then it would end up being more

Speaker 3: [34:28] But then it's almost certainly gonna be more than that- Yeah right? Um-

Speaker 1: [34:33] That's where it comes back to that guaranteed price.

Speaker 3: [34:35] Yep. Yep.

Speaker 1: [34:36] That's huge.

Speaker 3: [34:36] Yeah, so we think it's a great value.

Speaker 1: [34:38] Yeah.

Speaker 3: [34:38] Yeah.

Speaker 1: [34:39] Um, and then financing options, that's, that's really the biggest hurdle I think for most people, and I think that's still something that is being figured out, kind of.

Speaker 3: [34:50] Yeah, it's changed a bit. I mean, you know, our early clients were f- were paying through cash or HELOCs- Mm-hmm … home equity lines of credit.

Speaker 1: [34:57] Yep.

Speaker 3: [34:58] Um, but Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac have come out with new products just, I believe it was in June, it was June or July-

Speaker 1: [35:05] Mm-hmm … Speaker 3: um, that, uh, there's at least five or six banks in Seattle now, um, that are using that kind of a product. So there is kind of a new emerging market around financing for backyard cottages. Good.

Speaker 3: [35:18] And, you know, if you come to us, then we'll, we'll make intros to those banks and- Yeah … that's part of the service is at least hooking you guys up with- Yeah … kind of the- Continue that … the right lender.

Speaker 1: [35:26] Yep. That's a big part of it, obviously.

Speaker 3: [35:29] Yep.

Speaker 1: [35:29] For sure. You have to figure out how to pay for it . Speaker 3: Yep. Yep. ' Speaker: Cause not everyone has a few hundred grand sitting around. Most

Speaker 3: [35:34] people, yeah, can or don't wanna pay cash for-

Speaker 1: [35:36] Yeah, exactly … Speaker 3: a new building, yeah. Yeah. So that's still somewhat emerging- But over time, I think that's gonna be a much simpler process for

Speaker 3: [35:44] most people- Yeah, I mean, there's a couple lenders that are actually quite active in it already that are already doing it. Okay, cool. Um, and there's an- another four that we know of that, um, are starting to work on it.

Speaker 1: [35:51] Okay. Well, good. So that means options for you are out there, and you can figure out how to make this work if you are interested. So-

Speaker 3: [35:59] Yep … Speaker: Don, thank you very much for your time. Um- All right. Appreciate you guys … appreciate it. Thank you for your time as well. I know that we're gonna, we're gonna give you a quick real estate market update real quick. So Jason, why don't you kind of take it away? Where, where are we at in the market right now?

Speaker 2: [36:11] Yeah, I mean, I feel like we've been saying this for a few months now, but the, you know, for the last year and a half or so, the market's definitely calmed down.

Speaker 1: [36:19] Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2: [36:19] Um, it's, you know, you look at, like, average prices, and it just kind of hovers around the same numbers, 675, 720, um, median sales price. But, uh, we've said for the last few episodes, you know, it's kind of a tale of two cities where you're- Yeah … seeing a house that, um, is on the market for four days, and the neighbor is on the market for 100 days. Yep. Um, and a lot of this comes down to two things, and we've, like I said, I, we've said this before, but I was talking to some agents yesterday about this exact thing. Uh, you, you, you know, listing a house right now is very, it's hard to set the expectation because you don't know what's gonna happen. Mm-hmm. Like, how fast is it gonna sell? If you accept an offer, some of these offers, because they're not as strong o- uh, in terms of what we were seeing two years ago, where the buyer doesn't have as many options to back out.

Speaker 1: [37:10] Yep.

Speaker 2: [37:11] Um, now they have options, and they are backing out on occasion, and that really makes it hard for the house to come back on the market and sell- Mm-hmm quickly. It just, it's a, it's a bruise on the home. Yep. Um, you know, I saw a house in North Seattle, a, an amazing house, very well-priced, after they lowered the price a couple times. Um, now it's very well-priced. It has one and a half bathrooms, which sounds great. However, the second floor is where two of the bedroom, two of the three bedrooms are, so the one on the first floor is more like an office, and the ba- bathroom on the second floor is a half bath.

Speaker 1: [37:46] Ah.

Speaker 2: [37:47] So y- you know, you look at this, and it's been sitting for 60-plus days. Mm-hmm. Two years ago, it would've gone the day it was listed. It's an amazing house, very cute. Yep. But that one thing is- Mm-hmm … really hurting it. It was a little overpriced initially, but they've lowered it down now. So, um, so yeah, it's, the, I feel like we're still singing this tune, but you add to the mix the seasonal variation that we see- Yep every a- every year, the annual cycle. You know, the, the, uh, weather cools down, and, uh, so does buying. Yep, exactly. People, you know, are working their butts off now. Their kids are in school. Yep. There's very little sunlight.

Speaker 1: [38:28] Yeah.

Speaker 2: [38:28] You know, it is not necessarily the best time to buy for a lot of people. And so, um, if you're a buyer, it might be a good time to start looking, because you might be competing against fewer buyers. That being said, you might have fewer options.

Speaker 1: [38:40] Yep.

Speaker 2: [38:41] But, uh, so it's kind of choose your adventure.

Speaker 1: [38:43] Yeah.

Speaker 2: [38:44] But,

Speaker 1: [38:44] um As a, as a seller, I'd say, too, I mean, we kinda told you six months ago, if you had a home that was harder to sell, had a weird funky floor plan, had something weird going on, put it on the market then, not now-

Speaker 3: [38:58] Mm

Speaker 1: [38:58] uh, because of this exact scenario.

Speaker 3: [39:01] Yep.

Speaker 1: [39:02] If, if you still, if you didn't sell and you're thinking you want to, I would say wait until April, May, June, something like that, and c- reconsider at that time, uh, because-

Speaker 2: [39:13] It's also really important to find an agent that's really good at marketing because- Yes … y- you can potentially market the hell out of something that is- Yep weird-

Speaker 1: [39:23] Yeah … Speaker 2: and make it work. It, you know, staging makes a big, big difference. Big, big difference. Yeah.

Speaker 2: [39:28] Um-

Speaker 1: [39:29] We actually looked at a house yesterday that- That- … had they not staged it the way that they did, everyone would've been scratching their head.

Speaker 2: [39:34] Yeah, the basement, you'd be like, I mean, it's nice, but what are you gonna use this space for? Yeah. But then they staged it, and it's just a logical like, "Oh, yeah, of course." Yeah. But you would not think. It's like an Apple product. Yeah. You look at it and you're like, "Of course that's how it should be." Yeah, it wasn't until Apple came out with it.

Speaker 1: [39:49] Yeah, exactly. Go look at Android.

Speaker 2: [39:52] You know- See what it could be the obvious isn't necessarily easy. So- Yeah … but yeah. It's an interesting time, so.

Speaker 1: [39:57] Perfect. Well, thank you again, Don, for coming on. Again, if anyone has, uh, any questions about, uh, detached accessory dwelling units, Node, N-O-D-E, is the company name, and they're located at node.eco, E-C-O. Um, that's not a .com, not a .net. Nope. Eco. So go check 'em out there, and, uh, and that's it for this episode of Awesome in Seattle podcast. Thanks, guys. Thank

Speaker 3: [40:25] you for listening. Really appreciate it.

Speaker 1: [40:26] Of course. Thanks.